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8.05 g

umpire_scott

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umpire_scott

umpire_scott

Posted
Posted

I inadvertently hijacked another thread and so I wanted to move this question here for everyone to get a fresh look at it.

 

This rule reads that it is a balk when with runners on base the pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

 

"any motion associated with his pitch" can be somewhat ambiguous.  So what motions are prohibited here?  And any casebook citations would be much appreciated.

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maven
maven

On the contrary, the vast majority of times I've called this balk F1 was in the windup. They do it usually with R1 only, and they want the runner to think they've mistakenly taken the rubber in the wi

BigUmp56
BigUmp56

Situation #1 - If his hands are coming together at the same time his pivot foot contacts the rubber, I have nothing provided he doesn't quick pitch or fail to come to a complete stop. If the two motio

Jesse
Jesse

Coming "set" when not on the rubber. So, anything along the lines of acting like they're on the rubber while not on it.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

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Posted

Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

 

 

 

Sometimes done when the bases are loaded.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

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Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

 

 

 

Sometimes done when the bases are loaded.

 

 

Agreed but I don't think that 8.05 (g) was written with the wind-up in mind.  Most balk rules are referring to the stretch because in 90% of situations with runners on the pitcher is working from the stretch.

MCump

MCump

Posted
Posted

 

Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

 

 

I had this in my colt game on Sunday and called a balk.  R1 outs don't matter. Pitcher is on rubber in wind up position, takes sign and legally steps off with the correct foot. He then lifts his hands together above his head as if beginning to pitch.

 

It looked like he was starting his wind up with the wrong foot basically.  He said he has gotten away with it in Varsity ball games and it was the first time anyone ever called a balk on him for that move.

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

Thats a good example of what the rule is for.  Often it happens almost as one move hoping that the runner will think the step back is part of the motion to pitch.  Then if the stp back is with the right (meaning correct)  foot and theres no motion to pitch you cn get a pick.  But if theres a motion to pitch such as raising the hands then its a balk.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

Agreed but I don't think that 8.05 (g) was written with the wind-up in mind.  Most balk rules are referring to the stretch because in 90% of situations with runners on the pitcher is working from the stretch.

On the contrary, the vast majority of times I've called this balk F1 was in the windup. They do it usually with R1 only, and they want the runner to think they've mistakenly taken the rubber in the windup.

 

The move is this: instead of starting the windup with the free foot, they initiate disengagement with the pivot foot. If that's all they do, then they're legal and may play on a runner dumb enough to run when the pivot moves.

 

But they will sometimes also start the hands in the windup motion. That's a balk, regardless of whether they start the hands before or after the pivot foot fully disengages.

 

BTW, you kill it immediately with this balk, even in OBR. F1 may not legally pitch to the batter, because he has disengaged. And since the move is first to disengage and then to play on the runner, you kill it before any throw.

  • Like 2
johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

 

Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

 

 

 

That's when they try it.

Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

I called games for a team who's coach always had his pitcher get on the rubber in the windup position when the first baserunner of the game got on. Then he'd have them step off with the pivot foot to see if they could catch R1. One night, F1 stepped off, and proceeded to bring his hands up over his head after disengaging. BALK. 8.05g. 

 

Side note...DC tried to tell me it's not a balk because his F1 doesn't bring his hands up over his head in his windup.  :rollinglaugh:

 

EDit- I should have read Maven's post before posting. 

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

 

 

Some pitcher will act like they're starting their pitching motion from the wind up, but not on the rubber.

 

How often would they be in the windup with runners on?

 

 

I had this in my colt game on Sunday and called a balk.  R1 outs don't matter. Pitcher is on rubber in wind up position, takes sign and legally steps off with the correct foot. He then lifts his hands together above his head as if beginning to pitch.

 

It looked like he was starting his wind up with the wrong foot basically.  He said he has gotten away with it in Varsity ball games and it was the first time anyone ever called a balk on him for that move.

 

Either he is full of crap or the area HS umpires are clueless. First, starting a wind-up off the rubber is a balk, which is the premise of the thread. Second, you can't pick from the wind-up in Fed so the umpires supposedly missed it on two counts, which I doubt. 

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

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So on this issue of coming to the pitching plate and coming set all at the same time I'm looking for a consensus on how to call this.  There are also different scenarios to address. 

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

So on this issue of coming to the pitching plate and coming set all at the same time I'm looking for a consensus on how to call this.  There are also different scenarios to address. 

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

 

 

Situation 2 sounds like a "start and stop" balk.  

 

I wouldn't balk anything in Situation 1 unless it turns into a quick pitch.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

So on this issue of coming to the pitching plate and coming set all at the same time I'm looking for a consensus on how to call this.  There are also different scenarios to address. 

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

 

 

Situation 2 sounds like a "start and stop" balk.  

 

I wouldn't balk anything in Situation 1 unless it turns into a quick pitch.

 

 

so in situation #1 would you allow the pitcher to continue doing it?

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

#1 is not a balk and does not violate 8.05(g). Coming set is not part of the pitching motion, but occurs completely prior to the pitching motion. If he quick pitches, THAT would be a balk with runners on.

 

#2 is not a balk, but it is illegal. Kill it and tell F1 not to do that. Depending on the level, you might have to explain why to the coach. (Johnny, it can't be a start and stop balk, because the pitch can't start with F1 off the rubber.)

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Fittske24

Fittske24

Posted
Posted

So on this issue of coming to the pitching plate and coming set all at the same time I'm looking for a consensus on how to call this.  There are also different scenarios to address. 

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

#1...pitcher cannot engage the pitching rubber with both hands together. Per 8.01(b) "Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion." So #1 should not be allowed.

#2... This sounds like simulating a pitch which is illegal per 8.05(g): "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate"; Balk

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

#1 is not a balk and does not violate 8.05(g). Coming set is not part of the pitching motion, but occurs completely prior to the pitching motion. If he quick pitches, THAT would be a balk with runners on.

 

#2 is not a balk, but it is illegal. Kill it and tell F1 not to do that. Depending on the level, you might have to explain why to the coach. (Johnny, it can't be a start and stop balk, because the pitch can't start with F1 off the rubber.)

 

Situation #1

He has to get on the rubber and then set. It is not a balk but I would not allow that to continue. It gains him a huge advantage over the runners and it should be stopped. 

Situation #2

Coming set off the rubber is certainly a balk, how can it not be?

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

#1 is not a balk and does not violate 8.05(g). Coming set is not part of the pitching motion, but occurs completely prior to the pitching motion. If he quick pitches, THAT would be a balk with runners on.

 

#2 is not a balk, but it is illegal. Kill it and tell F1 not to do that. Depending on the level, you might have to explain why to the coach. (Johnny, it can't be a start and stop balk, because the pitch can't start with F1 off the rubber.)

 

 

 

But if he steps in front of the rubber...then steps back but not off of the back and he's set, i have a start and stop...similar to what Fittske posted above.

maven

maven

Posted
Posted

But if he steps in front of the rubber...then steps back but not off of the back and he's set, i have a start and stop...similar to what Fittske posted above.

His pivot is behind the rubber: he's straddling it. In sit#2, he comes set, then he engages.

Fittske24

Fittske24

Posted
Posted

But if he steps in front of the rubber...then steps back but not off of the back and he's set, i have a start and stop...similar to what Fittske posted above.

Let me add.....In order for there to be a "start-stop" type balk, the start-stop must be done from a legal position from the rubber....Meaning The pitcher must have engaged the rubber correctly before the start-stop balk can be enforced. If the pitcher has not engaged the rubber correctly, it is not a start-stop balk. If a balk does occur in this situation, it will be some other type of balk (not start-stop for explanation purposes).

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 

Either he is full of crap or the area HS umpires are clueless. First, starting a wind-up off the rubber is a balk, which is the premise of the thread. Second, you can't pick from the wind-up in Fed so the umpires supposedly missed it on two counts, which I doubt. 

 

 

 

While I agree you cant pick off from the wind up in FED once the pitcher steps off the rubber he isn't in the windup.  So if he steps off and then picks without simulating a pitch then its legal even in FED.  And, yes, I've seen it done.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

Posted
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Posted

 

So on this issue of coming to the pitching plate and coming set all at the same time I'm looking for a consensus on how to call this.  There are also different scenarios to address. 

 

Situation #1 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.   From that position he starts his motion to come to a set by bringing his hands together.  He competes this move with his hands together and his foot now in front of the rubber contacting it. (Most have said this is not a balk, but a few of you have agreed with me that it violates 8.05 (g))

 

Situation #2 - A pitcher is standing straddling the rubber.  From that position he comes to a set by brings his hands together.  Then after coming to a set he takes his back foot and places it in contact with the rubber.

#1...pitcher cannot engage the pitching rubber with both hands together. Per 8.01(b) "Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion." So #1 should not be allowed.

#2... This sounds like simulating a pitch which is illegal per 8.05(g): "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate"; Balk

 

 

IMHO if #2 violates 8.05 (g) then so does #1.  If "coming set" is a "motion naturally associated with his pitch" then he is violating it in both instances.  So to me they are either both balks or neither is a balk.  Just because he moves his back foot simultaneously in #1 does not change the fact that with his foot not in contact he began the process of bringing his hands together.

 

Now maybe someone has a balk in situation #2 that violates something other than 8.05 (g).  That is what I am interested in hearing.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

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IMHO if #2 violates 8.05 (g) then so does #1.  If "coming set" is a "motion naturally associated with his pitch" then he is violating it in both instances.  So to me they are either both balks or neither is a balk.  Just because he moves his back foot simultaneously in #1 does not change the fact that with his foot not in contact he began the process of bringing his hands together.

 

Now maybe someone has a balk in situation #2 that violates something other than 8.05 (g).  That is what I am interested in hearing.


IMHO if #2 violates 8.05 (g) then so does #1.  If "coming set" is a "motion naturally associated with his pitch" then he is violating it in both instances.  So to me they are either both balks or neither is a balk.  Just because he moves his back foot simultaneously in #1 does not change the fact that with his foot not in contact he began the process of bringing his hands together.

 

Now maybe someone has a balk in situation #2 that violates something other than 8.05 (g).  That is what I am interested in hearing.

umpire_scott

umpire_scott

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What about in FED where "taking signs off the rubber" is a balk?  Would this be a balk in FED?  It seems like FED is saying "if you do things off the rubber, that are consistent with the things you do while in contact with the rubber, it's a balk".

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