How Would You Have Handled This?

[BigUmp56]

I'm the BU. R2 and R3 only, one out. Batter hits a slow roller up the third baseline. F5 muffs the ball moving to his left, and sees R3 heading for the plate, so he throws home. R3 decides to retreat to third and a rundown ensues. During the rundown R2 moves up and is standing on third when R3 slides back into third, beating the tag by F6 who was covering that end of the pickle.

 

R3 stands up, and now I have R3 and R2 both holding the bag. F6 lays a tag on R3 and looks at me for the out call. All he gets is a blank stare and a "safe" signal. Defensive managers yells to him to tag him again. F6 tags R3 again, and gets the same call from me. This happens a few more times, and the defensive manager calls "time." R2 hearing the call of "time" from the manager heads back to second base. I wait until he reaches second, and grant the "time" request.

 

The manager comes to me and wants to know why I called the runner safe, and tells me he "knows" he should have been called out for being tagged while two runners were occupying the same base. I inform him that he's almost right, but that his player was tagging the preceding runner, who was entitled to the base. Had he tagged R2, I would have called him out. He tells me I'm wrong and let's me know he's going to be playing the rest of the game under protest. Sigh.............

 

 

I'm pretty confident that I handled this correctly, but if there's anything I should have done differently, I'd like to hear it.

 

Tim.

[maven]

That's exactly right. Good job waiting to call time till the end of playing action.

 

In my experience, some coaches commit the invincible ignorance fallacy: if they don't pay any attention to your explanation, maybe it will just go away.

[James Walker]

You did exactly right. Explained the rule to the coach, he didn't believe you ( imagine that). Let him play the game under protest, when he loses the protest maybe he'll finally read the rule book.

[JHSump]

Exactly what I would have done.

 

Pretty funny that F6 kept tagging R3 again and again.  "Oh, now that you tagged him three times, he's out!  It's the new three-tags-you're-out rule."  Also funny that nobody thought to try tagging R2 while both runners were on 3B.

 

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

[maven]

One more thought: coaches assume they're calling time rather than requesting it. When he requests it, since play is still ongoing, you might have held up your hand and said, "Not yet, coach!"

 

Might have prompted a light bulb somewhere in a fielder's mind.

[BigUmp56]

One more thought: coaches assume they're calling time rather than requesting it. When he requests it, since play is still ongoing, you might have held up your hand and said, "Not yet, coach!"

 

Might have prompted a light bulb somewhere in a fielder's mind.

 

 

There are time that I'll do just that. A runner heading to first on a base-on-balls award is a prime example. Many times manager's want to call time and head out immediately to the mound when a walk is issued. I let them know in that situation that they need to wait. I wonder if doing it in this situation isn't rewarding the defense for their stupidity. I'd think I'd have felt like he11 if F6 heard a comment like that and threw out the smarter R2.

 

Tim.

[grayhawk]

Great job on this Tim.  As I read your post, I kept thinking one step ahead about what was going to happen and you nailed it at every step.  Wish you could be around when the coach's protest gets denied!

[Thunderheads]

Great job Tim,...

I'm the idiot who would explain the rule to the coach once he argues, insists I'm wrong and wants to file a protest.  It irks me when a coach is SO SURE he's right and he's dead wrong....I always feel I must insert myself to make sure he knows is in error!  But, that's me

[maven]

I wonder if doing it in this situation isn't rewarding the defense for their stupidity. I'd think I'd have felt like he11 if F6 heard a comment like that and threw out the smarter R2.

I think that's one thought too many.

 

The offense is expecting to end up with a runner on 3B and an out. R2 was coached to follow R3: he's just moving up behind an advancing runner. When the defense foiled that advance and drove back R3, there's nothing "smart" about having 2 runners on 1 base. When R2 retreats, the defense has an opportunity to play on him, and there's nothing unfair about affording them that opportunity.

 

Keeping a coach off the field during a live ball is almost always an acceptable mechanic, regardless of whom it might or might not "help."

[JaxRolo]

When a tagged was made on R3 you should have pointed at him and said "You Safe"

[BigUmp56]

 

I wonder if doing it in this situation isn't rewarding the defense for their stupidity. I'd think I'd have felt like he11 if F6 heard a comment like that and threw out the smarter R2.

I think that's one thought too many.

 

The offense is expecting to end up with a runner on 3B and an out. R2 was coached to follow R3: he's just moving up behind an advancing runner. When the defense foiled that advance and drove back R3, there's nothing "smart" about having 2 runners on 1 base. When R2 retreats, the defense has an opportunity to play on him, and there's nothing unfair about affording them that opportunity.

 

Keeping a coach off the field during a live ball is almost always an acceptable mechanic, regardless of whom it might or might not "help."

 

 

 

I still don't think so. I didn't take away their opportunity to play on R2. They had all the opportunity in the World to make a play on him. But I do agree with you about not allowing a coach to enter the field of play during a live ball. He waited for me to call time before he came out to me.

 

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

When a tagged was made on R3 you should have pointed at him and said "You Safe"

 

 

Why not just tell F6 that he's tagging the wrong runner and point to R2 and say "tag him."

 

He tagged the one runner, and I ruled him safe, repeatedly. I wonder who you think it was he thought I was signaling as being safe. No need to point or let on to the defense why they're not understanding a rule.

 

No one is going to convince me that we need to coach players what they're supposed to already know. I'm looking for opinions that wouldn't include becoming the 10th man on defense, Roland.

 

Tim.

[James Walker]

Great job Tim,...

I'm the idiot who would explain the rule to the coach once he argues, insists I'm wrong and wants to file a protest.  It irks me when a coach is SO SURE he's right and he's dead wrong....I always feel I must insert myself to make sure he knows is in error!  But, that's me

These kinda coaches give me a headache. Had one last weekend. Closed bases, runner left early, DDB signal, and BU went to DM after the play. Kid goes back to first and OM comes out to talk to my BU. He kept insisting that its an appeal play. Sorry coach, but its not. Two innings later he comes to me and asks if they can play under protest as he still didn't believe we got the rule right. Sorry coach, please return to your dugout and don't bring it up again. :bang:

[BigUmp56]

I was taught to never deny a protest. It's not really up to us. You can tell a manager that it's a judgment call, which is supposed to be non-protestable, but it's best to just accept the protest and move on.

 

Tim.

[JaxRolo]

 

When a tagged was made on R3 you should have pointed at him and said "You Safe"

 

 

Why not just tell F6 that he's tagging the wrong runner and point to R2 and say "tag him."

 

He tagged the one runner, and I ruled him safe, repeatedly. I wonder who you think it was he thought I was signaling as being safe. No need to point or let on to the defense why they're not understanding a rule.

 

No one is going to convince me that we need to coach players what they're supposed to already know. I'm looking for opinions that wouldn't include becoming the 10th man on defense, Roland.

 

Tim.

 

I could be wrong but with 2 on a base I have been told to point to the runner that was tagged and safe either safe or out depending on who was tagged. Avoids confusion.

 

Also the OP said that he didn't say anything but just gave a safe mechanic. I also been taught that whenever you signal something you also voice it out!

[grayhawk]

When a tagged was made on R3 you should have pointed at him and said "You Safe"

Why not just tell F6 that he's tagging the wrong runner and point to R2 and say "tag him."

He tagged the one runner, and I ruled him safe, repeatedly. I wonder who you think it was he thought I was signaling as being safe. No need to point or let on to the defense why they're not understanding a rule.

No one is going to convince me that we need to coach players what they're supposed to already know. I'm looking for opinions that wouldn't include becoming the 10th man on defense, Roland.

Tim.

I could be wrong but with 2 on a base I have been told to point to the runner that was tagged and safe either safe or out depending on who was tagged. Avoids confusion.

If the fielder tags both runners, this is the proper mechanic. However, if only one runner is tagged, as in th OP, then why point? It's obvious who you are calling safe.

[JaxRolo]

When a tagged was made on R3 you should have pointed at him and said "You Safe"

Why not just tell F6 that he's tagging the wrong runner and point to R2 and say "tag him." He tagged the one runner, and I ruled him safe, repeatedly. I wonder who you think it was he thought I was signaling as being safe. No need to point or let on to the defense why they're not understanding a rule. No one is going to convince me that we need to coach players what they're supposed to already know. I'm looking for opinions that wouldn't include becoming the 10th man on defense, Roland. Tim. I could be wrong but with 2 on a base I have been told to point to the runner that was tagged and safe either safe or out depending on who was tagged. Avoids confusion. If the fielder tags both runners, this is the proper mechanic. However, if only one runner is tagged, as in th OP, then why point? It's obvious who you are calling safe. Yes but I think you should still verbalized the safe.

[noumpere]

I was taught to never deny a protest. It's not really up to us. You can tell a manager that it's a judgment call, which is supposed to be non-protestable, but it's best to just accept the protest and move on.

 

Tim.

That's generally good advice but in the play presented it was two innings later and that's too late to protest so don't take it.  Now , if the manager protests that your not taking his protest, ... lol.

[noumpere]

 

 

Also the OP said that he didn't say anything but just gave a safe mechanic. I also been taught that whenever you signal something you also voice it out!

 

 

Generally good teaching advice and good to follow for newer umpires but there are some exceptions to this (not necessarily saying this particular play is one of them though).

[mstaylor]

 

 I inform him that he's almost right, but that his player was tagging the preceding runner, who was entitled to the base.

 

Too technical, bounced off of his forehead. I would say," Wrong runner." When he asked for time just say no instead of not yet.