Should the Run Count

[zoops]

R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out. Should the run count?

 

[noumpere]

In my view the run should count but I would also allow an appeal to then negate the run.  Its not really covered and I think maybe JR has a different take on this (or maybe its one of the other sources - but I know theres a difference of opinion).

[zoops]

This is from a JR quiz, they said it should count.  I kind of disagree.  It seems as though the force would still be in play since he never touched the base.  

[FlaUmp22]

I would see it as the run counting but I haven't seen anything concrete to justify it either way

[th3]

how is it different that if he missed the base and continued to 3nd on a ball hit to the outfield - and then was called out on a proper appeal?

[SoCal Lurker]

This is from a JR quiz, they said it should count.  I kind of disagree.  It seems as though the force would still be in play since he never touched the base.  

 

Why?  If a defensive player accidentally touched second base after he passed it, would you give the out?  If not, then it isn't really a foce, is it?

 

This makes me wonder something else:  can you appeal to get an "earlier" out on a player already out?  In this scenario, could the defensive player then step on the bag and say he missed it to get the force?  (Or, in another context, loaded bases 2 outs; R2 misses 3B and is thrown out at the plate -- could defense appeal miss at third to wipe out the first run, or is it too late once they get that R out?)

[umpcoachfather]

I think J/R has a problem with the appeal, thats why they wrote it that way. 

Someone take the quiz and see what it says. 

[Mike Prince]

In real time I'm allowing the run but also allowing an appeal for the missed initial touch of 2B.

[noumpere]

 

This is from a JR quiz, they said it should count.  I kind of disagree.  It seems as though the force would still be in play since he never touched the base.  

 

Why?  If a defensive player accidentally touched second base after he passed it, would you give the out?  If not, then it isn't really a foce, is it?

 

This makes me wonder something else:  can you appeal to get an "earlier" out on a player already out?  In this scenario, could the defensive player then step on the bag and say he missed it to get the force?  (Or, in another context, loaded bases 2 outs; R2 misses 3B and is thrown out at the plate -- could defense appeal miss at third to wipe out the first run, or is it too late once they get that R out?)

 

Yes despite I think the rule wording actual saying "appeal on another runner" -- you can still appeal the runner who made the third out to get the advantages fourth out.

[noumpere]

This is from a JR quiz, they said it should count.  I kind of disagree.  It seems as though the force would still be in play since he never touched the base.  

It is still in effect -- but only on appeal.  A runner who passes a base is assumed to have touched it until and unless its appealed is the general rule of thumb.  So in your play, when the runner is first tagged its just as if he overslud the base and was tagged -- a time play out.

[maven]

Agree with noumpere. The run counts, pending a missed-base appeal.

 

The force was off once the runner acquired the base by passing it. When he was tagged off the base, that's a time play. Since R3 scored before R1 was tagged, the run counts.

 

Once he's out, he cannot correct the baserunning error. A missed-base appeal would yield an advantageous 4th out. That would nullify the run.

[umpstu]

 

 

This is from a JR quiz, they said it should count.  I kind of disagree.  It seems as though the force would still be in play since he never touched the base.  

 

Why?  If a defensive player accidentally touched second base after he passed it, would you give the out?  If not, then it isn't really a foce, is it?

 

This makes me wonder something else:  can you appeal to get an "earlier" out on a player already out?  In this scenario, could the defensive player then step on the bag and say he missed it to get the force?  (Or, in another context, loaded bases 2 outs; R2 misses 3B and is thrown out at the plate -- could defense appeal miss at third to wipe out the first run, or is it too late once they get that R out?)

 

Yes despite I think the rule wording actual saying "appeal on another runner" -- you can still appeal the runner who made the third out to get the advantages fourth out.

 

Correct

[zoops]

1. R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a 'time play'). The defense appeals that R1 missed second base, hoping to get a force out-an 'advantageous fourth out' - to negate the run.
   1. The appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is now a force out.
   2. The appeal is not allowed, the run scores.
   3. The umpire should simply call R1 out for being out of the baseline, thus avoiding this whole mess.

 

JR says the correct answer is 2.  Their reasoning is something along the lines of the OBR do not specifically define what constitutes an appeal.  

[DVA7130]

 

1. R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a 'time play'). The defense appeals that R1 missed second base, hoping to get a force out-an 'advantageous fourth out' - to negate the run.
   1. The appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is now a force out.
   2. The appeal is not allowed, the run scores.
   3. The umpire should simply call R1 out for being out of the baseline, thus avoiding this whole mess.

 

JR says the correct answer is 2.  Their reasoning is something along the lines of the OBR do not specifically define what constitutes an appeal.  

 

I have a really hard time buying into that.

[zoops]

What if the SS had the presence of mind to just touch the base once he realized the runner never touched it and said something to the umpire like "he missed it."?

[DVA7130]

 

 

1. R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a 'time play'). The defense appeals that R1 missed second base, hoping to get a force out-an 'advantageous fourth out' - to negate the run.
   1. The appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is now a force out.
   2. The appeal is not allowed, the run scores.
   3. The umpire should simply call R1 out for being out of the baseline, thus avoiding this whole mess.

 

JR says the correct answer is 2.  Their reasoning is something along the lines of the OBR do not specifically define what constitutes an appeal.  

 

I have a really hard time buying into that, but honestly, calling a runner out twice  Sorry defense, your first choice was the tag. That is a time play, run scores.

EDIT: Bother, that was supposed to be an edit not quote.

Edited June 21, 2013 by DVA7130

[BigUmp56]

Roder is wrong on this one and he's admitted it in the past. As long as there is an unmistakeable appeal on the runner, the advantageous fourth out applies and the run doesn't score. There are a few problems in the JR that they've admitted to after being challenged by Evans.

Tim.

[Mike Prince]

Roder is wrong on this one and he's admitted it in the past. As long as there is an unmistakeable appeal on the runner, the advantageous fourth out applies and the run doesn't score. There are a few problems in the JR that they've admitted to after being challenged by Evans.

Tim.

 

And this one is just common sense anyway!

[noumpere]

Exactly -- hes said that in the MLB game, it would look silly / confusing (I don't know the exact word he used) to call the runner out and score the run and then unscore it when all the action happened in a flash at the base.

 

that might be how theyd like to rule, and might be how theyd once do it, and heck, might be how theyd do it still, but its wrong.