Runner Physically Assisting Another Runner

[CricketChapman]

I am almost certain I have read a thread before on this (I could not find it in the search), but I need some quick authority (OBR, MLBUM, J/R, Wendelstadt) to back-up a call I made tonight.

Sitch:  15U Babe Ruth tournament game - semifinal (OBR mod).  HT batting, trailing 9-8, bases loaded, two outs.  VT throws a batted ball around, R3 and R2 score, and R1 cruises in toward home without a throw.  R1 misses HP, and R2 (who is standing at the edge of the dirt circle) says, "R1 - go back and touch home."  R1 doesn't hear R2 and takes a couple steps toward the dugout.  R2 then pushes (in a guiding manner) R1 in the back and says, "GO TOUCH HOME."  I immediately banged R1 out for out 3 because of the physical assistance given by R2, and told the scorekeeper to score R3 and R2.

Any cited authority would be appreciated.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Interesting, I've only heard of an out when Coaches assist, or runners PASS.  Can runners assist?  No references here at work.

[Mike Prince]

7.09 (e) and (h) probably come closest to addressing this situation.

 

I have no problem with the call you made.

[noumpere]

It was covered in one of the NCAA interps this year I think, or maybe it was one of the FED interps.  Either way, you got it right and yes retired runners / on-deck batters etc. can be out for assisting.  Current runners cannot be out for assisting (as long as they don't pass)

[Jimurray]

I am almost certain I have read a thread before on this (I could not find it in the search), but I need some quick authority (OBR, MLBUM, J/R, Wendelstadt) to back-up a call I made tonight.

Sitch:  15U Babe Ruth tournament game - semifinal (OBR mod).  HT batting, trailing 9-8, bases loaded, two outs.  VT throws a batted ball around, R3 and R2 score, and R1 cruises in toward home without a throw.  R1 misses HP, and R2 (who is standing at the edge of the dirt circle) says, "R1 - go back and touch home."  R1 doesn't hear R2 and takes a couple steps toward the dugout.  R2 then pushes (in a guiding manner) R1 in the back and says, "GO TOUCH HOME."  I immediately banged R1 out for out 3 because of the physical assistance given by R2, and told the scorekeeper to score R3 and R2.

Any cited authority would be appreciated.

 

My Wendelstedt Umpire Manual from a few years ago says: "A runner is out..... when a member of the offensive team, other than a another runner running the bases, physically assists...."

 

Happened in MLB in the past. R2 is not a runner anymore.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Makes sense.  When applied with a little CSFP........it makes sense.

[maven]

Current runners cannot be out for assisting (as long as they don't pass)

 

That's what I've got.

[DVA7130]

Interesting yes. Initially I thought play on because I have heard of a case play where R1 becomes injured trotting the bases on a HR. BR can assist (carry even) R1 all the way around as long as they both touch the bases in the proper order and the runner is never completely passed, or a pinch runner could be used. The runner would be out of course if a coach assisted. However, in all R2 is no longer a runner, but an offensive teammate.

 

So I have 9-10 and the end of the inning.

[SoCal Lurker]

This scenario may make a great trivia question:  when can a run be taken off the book without an appeal by the defense?  Is there any other way for that to happen?

 

. . . musing:  is R1 still a "runner" if he has "scored" subject to the possibility of his score being appealed (and nothing is curerntly being done to appeal)? . . .

[Mike Prince]

Once a runner scores or is put out he is by rule a "retired runner", which is treated differently from a rules perspective than a "runner".  

 

Not sure I completely understand your question, but if he touches/crosses home as a runner there are scenarios where he could become a runner again (example return to retouch a missed base).  But there is no scenario I can think of outside of a backwards local rule where his run can be removed without an appeal once he crosses home plate.

[Jimurray]

Once a runner scores or is put out he is by rule a "retired runner", which is treated differently from a rules perspective than a "runner".  

 

Not sure I completely understand your question, but if he touches/crosses home as a runner there are scenarios where he could become a runner again (example return to retouch a missed base).  But there is no scenario I can think of outside of a backwards local rule where his run can be removed without an appeal once he crosses home plate.

 

This scenario is one and was called that way in MLB I think. Somebody missed home, previously scored runner (non -runner) starts to push him back to HP and ump calls him out.

[bleacher_bum]

This scenario may make a great trivia question:  when can a run be taken off the book without an appeal by the defense?  Is there any other way for that to happen?

 

. . . musing:  is R1 still a "runner" if he has "scored" subject to the possibility of his score being appealed (and nothing is curerntly being done to appeal)? . . .

I think what SoCal is saying, is that since R1 technically scored pending appeal, is he even considered a base runner at the time?  IOW, is a non BR assisting a BR in returning, or is he just assisting a player?

 

Nevertheless, you handled well IMO. 

[Dragon29]

7.09 (e) and (h) probably come closest to addressing this situation.

 

I have no problem with the call you made.

 

I don't think 7.09 (e) or (h) apply here - the closest I can find to it is 7.09 (d)

[Mike Prince]

 

7.09 (e) and (h) probably come closest to addressing this situation.

 

I have no problem with the call you made.

 

I don't think 7.09 (e) or (h) apply here - the closest I can find to it is 7.09 (d)

 

 

I think (e) or (d) can apply here - in both cases the retired runner is hindering the defense by assisting the still active runner.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Just to play devil's advocate..............How is he assiting a "runner"?  Even if he did miss the plate, he is presumed to have touched it unless appealed.  Wouldn't that mean that he too is now presumed to be a retired runner? 

[Richvee]

It did happen in MLB recently (last year or two), and there is a clip of it on this site somewhere. Then runner was called out.

 

Just to play the "what if" game.  I would assume the run would count if the runner actually touched home, and then was pushed back to touch home again  because his team mate THOUGHT he missed home?  

[noumpere]

Just to play devil's advocate..............How is he assiting a "runner"?  Even if he did miss the plate, he is presumed to have touched it unless appealed.  Wouldn't that mean that he too is now presumed to be a retired runner? 

 

He's presumed to have touched it until he's pushed -- that's treated the same way as the appeal and hes now un-presumed (there must be a better word but Im running on very little sleep) to have touched and is declared out.

 

 

It did happen in MLB recently (last year or two), and there is a clip of it on this site somewhere. Then runner was called out.

 

Just to play the "what if" game.  I would assume the run would count if the runner actually touched home, and then was pushed back to touch home again  because his team mate THOUGHT he missed home?  

Of course the run still counts -- just like if the runner thought he missed third and touched the plate an went back to third to "re tag it"