Do you balk this

[umpire_scott]

I had a kid who from the stretch would pause at the top, take a deep breathe, and then on the exhale would bring his hands down and stop at his waist.  In my judgement he was setting twice.  

[Pete Peterson Sr]

If, in my judgment, he was double-setting, then yes, I would call the balk.

[maven]

8.05 COMMENT: If you're in doubt about the legality of the move, judge whether the pitcher intends to deceive the runner with it. In your case, it sounds as if the answer would be "no." maven

[umpire_scott]

8.05 COMMENT: If you're in doubt about the legality of the move, judge whether the pitcher intends to deceive the runner with it. In your case, it sounds as if the answer would be "no." maven

 

But what about the fact that it could deceive the runner?  If I'm a runner and I was planning on stealing as soon as I see his hands start to come down from the initial pause I would break.  But if he stopped the second time at his waist he could then step off the rubber and retire me.  So it keeps me from knowing when he is actually set.  I don't think the pitcher was intending anything, but I do think the runner could have been deceived.

[umpire_scott]

I am not in doubt about the legality as much as I'm pointing something out that I see this not called all the time.  Some pitchers never actually stop they just slow way down for a significant period of time.  Most umpires I've seen allow this to count as a set.  Then other pitchers will also slow way down in a very similar manner but then come to a complete stop at the waist.  By the book one of those has to be a balk.

[mjr_2013]

 

8.05 COMMENT: If you're in doubt about the legality of the move, judge whether the pitcher intends to deceive the runner with it. In your case, it sounds as if the answer would be "no." maven

 

But what about the fact that it could deceive the runner?  If I'm a runner and I was planning on stealing as soon as I see his hands start to come down from the initial pause I would break.  But if he stopped the second time at his waist he could then step off the rubber and retire me.  So it keeps me from knowing when he is actually set.  I don't think the pitcher was intending anything, but I do think the runner could have been deceived.

 

 

It won't deceive the runner if he does it every time. It's a HTBT for sure, but I don't think I would balk it.

 

I know comparing MLB to HS is like apples to oranges, but think of Phil Coke... After he comes set, he takes a deep breath and shrugs his shoulders. Every time. By strict rule interpretation, that's a balk. But he isn't gaining an advantage, and he isn't deceiving any runners.

[Called3rdStrike]

Clayton Kershaw does the same thing you mention above.

[BT_Blue]

By definition it sounds like a balk. Definitely a HTBT. However, just because a F1 does something EVERY TIME, doesn't make it any less illegal.

[carolinablue]

If he is still moving, even ever so slowly, he is not set yet. So he could slowly lower his hands to his belt before coming to a complete stop and be legal.

[clawdad]

 

 

8.05 COMMENT: If you're in doubt about the legality of the move, judge whether the pitcher intends to deceive the runner with it. In your case, it sounds as if the answer would be "no." maven

 

But what about the fact that it could deceive the runner?  If I'm a runner and I was planning on stealing as soon as I see his hands start to come down from the initial pause I would break.  But if he stopped the second time at his waist he could then step off the rubber and retire me.  So it keeps me from knowing when he is actually set.  I don't think the pitcher was intending anything, but I do think the runner could have been deceived.

 

 

It won't deceive the runner if he does it every time. It's a HTBT for sure, but I don't think I would balk it.

 

I know comparing MLB to HS is like apples to oranges, but think of Phil Coke... After he comes set, he takes a deep breath and shrugs his shoulders. Every time. By strict rule interpretation, that's a balk. But he isn't gaining an advantage, and he isn't deceiving any runners.

 

I had a fellow umpire tell me about something similar he had in a game tonight.  Windup or set, the pitcher shrugs his shoulders prior to delivery.  The opposing coach thought that should be a balk.  He wasn't argumentative, just wanted an opinion.  My friend said he didn't notice anything wrong since he did it regardless of the windup or set; or if there were runners on or not.  He said it appeard to be part of his natural pitching motion.  He was going to call our interpreter to get his take, though.  I told him I would run it by you guys here.

[maven]

I had a fellow umpire tell me about something similar he had in a game tonight.  Windup or set, the pitcher shrugs his shoulders prior to delivery.  The opposing coach thought that should be a balk.  He wasn't argumentative, just wanted an opinion.  My friend said he didn't notice anything wrong since he did it regardless of the windup or set; or if there were runners on or not.  He said it appeared to be part of his natural pitching motion.  He was going to call our interpreter to get his take, though.  I told him I would run it by you guys here.

I don't care about his "natural pitching motion," I care whether he's double setting. 2 ways to avoid that: the "shrug" is part of coming set (prior to his one, legal set), or the "shrug" initiates his pitching motion (after his one, legal set). Either way, if you judge there's one set, it's legal.

 

If you judge he comes set, shrugs, then sets again, that's a balk for starting and stopping. Again, we don't care about his "natural pitching motion."

[ricka56]

I wouldn't consider his natural motion to be germane for a balk call, unless on one occasion he didn't do the second part of his set move (delivered a pitch after his first "stop"). Then I'd be more inclined to see a double set and balk him the next time he reverts back to his double move that I previously allowed. 

[clawdad]

 

I had a fellow umpire tell me about something similar he had in a game tonight.  Windup or set, the pitcher shrugs his shoulders prior to delivery.  The opposing coach thought that should be a balk.  He wasn't argumentative, just wanted an opinion.  My friend said he didn't notice anything wrong since he did it regardless of the windup or set; or if there were runners on or not.  He said it appeared to be part of his natural pitching motion.  He was going to call our interpreter to get his take, though.  I told him I would run it by you guys here.

I don't care about his "natural pitching motion," I care whether he's double setting. 2 ways to avoid that: the "shrug" is part of coming set (prior to his one, legal set), or the "shrug" initiates his pitching motion (after his one, legal set). Either way, if you judge there's one set, it's legal.

 

If you judge he comes set, shrugs, then sets again, that's a balk for starting and stopping. Again, we don't care about his "natural pitching motion."

 

The way it was described to me was that from the set: F1 brought his hands together, made his stop, did the shoulder shrug, slight pause then delivered.  From the windup, he did the shrug with a slight pause then delivered.  The shoulder shrug was done every pitch with similar action regardless of windup or set.

 

 

I wouldn't consider his natural motion to be germane for a balk call, unless on one occasion he didn't do the second part of his set move (delivered a pitch after his first "stop"). Then I'd be more inclined to see a double set and balk him the next time he reverts back to his double move that I previously allowed. 

That's the thing, it was never really noticed until the opposing coach brought it up.  Once it was brought up, it appeared that he was consistently doing it regardless of the situation. No other umpire can recall if he did it in previous games or not (and these two teams have faced each other previously), so it's really been a non issue.  Being late in the season, and it's hard to think that this is something he just decided to try for this game.  Plus, if it the umpire started to balk it after the opposing coach brings it up, that creates a giant $#!t storm.

 

Ultimately, I think it is a HTBT to see the actual motion and decide.

[VAUmp]

BALK!!

[JaxRolo]

I don't buy the "Does it every time crap"

 

 

Did a game a couple weeks ago. First batter gets on base.

 

F1 Double sets. I call "Balk"

 

Coach comes running out. "Rolo- He does that every time"

 

Me- "John that was the first pitch with a runner on. How Am I supposed to know he does it every time!"

 

Coach- " You got a point"

 

 

 

 

ps- I would call a Double Set every time anyway!

[ricka56]

If you are going to balk him for not delivering a pitch (that's really what a double set balk is) then you could balk him for stopping with his hands above the chin (that's a rule too...in Fed anyway). If he brings his arms over his head, hands together and "kind of" stops, I would assume that he isn't done coming set until he brings his hands down past his chin. 

 

Don't let opposing coaches put a balk notion in your head, he's just trying to get in F1's head...don't be his conduit.

[JaxRolo]

If you are going to balk him for not delivering a pitch (that's really what a double set balk is) then you could balk him for stopping with his hands above the chin (that's a rule too...in Fed anyway). If he brings his arms over his head, hands together and "kind of" stops, I would assume that he isn't done coming set until he brings his hands down past his chin. 

 

Don't let opposing coaches put a balk notion in your head, he's just trying to get in F1's head...don't be his conduit.

 

It is not the hands above the chin.

 

Case Play:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION N:

With R1 at third and R2 at first, F1 comes to a complete stop with his glove partially above his chin. Is this legal?

RULING: This is legal.

[noumpere]

 

The way it was described to me was that from the set: F1 brought his hands together, made his stop, did the shoulder shrug, slight pause then delivered.  From the windup, he did the shrug with a slight pause then delivered.  The shoulder shrug was done every pitch with similar action regardless of windup or set.

 

 

 

 

That's the thing, it was never really noticed until the opposing coach brought it up.

 

 

A "shrug" is not listed as a way to balk.  You need to decide whether it was a motion to pitch or throw to a base.  If so balk it, if not ignore it.

 

And, if you "never really noticed" it until the coach brought it up it more than likely was nothing.

 

(And I forget the beginning part of this thread so if this is a story about someone else and not you, I apologize or using the word "you" above.)

[ricka56]

 

If you are going to balk him for not delivering a pitch (that's really what a double set balk is) then you could balk him for stopping with his hands above the chin (that's a rule too...in Fed anyway). If he brings his arms over his head, hands together and "kind of" stops, I would assume that he isn't done coming set until he brings his hands down past his chin. 

 

Don't let opposing coaches put a balk notion in your head, he's just trying to get in F1's head...don't be his conduit.

 

It is not the hands above the chin.

 

Case Play:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION N:

With R1 at third and R2 at first, F1 comes to a complete stop with his glove partially above his chin. Is this legal?

RULING: This is legal.

 

The word partially is the key word in that CB play. Totally above the chin is illegal.

[JaxRolo]

 

 

If you are going to balk him for not delivering a pitch (that's really what a double set balk is) then you could balk him for stopping with his hands above the chin (that's a rule too...in Fed anyway). If he brings his arms over his head, hands together and "kind of" stops, I would assume that he isn't done coming set until he brings his hands down past his chin. 

 

Don't let opposing coaches put a balk notion in your head, he's just trying to get in F1's head...don't be his conduit.

 

It is not the hands above the chin.

 

Case Play:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION N:

With R1 at third and R2 at first, F1 comes to a complete stop with his glove partially above his chin. Is this legal?

RULING: This is legal.

 

The word partially is the key word in that CB play. Totally above the chin is illegal.

 

also is not the hands. It's the glove.

[ricka56]

 

 

 

If you are going to balk him for not delivering a pitch (that's really what a double set balk is) then you could balk him for stopping with his hands above the chin (that's a rule too...in Fed anyway). If he brings his arms over his head, hands together and "kind of" stops, I would assume that he isn't done coming set until he brings his hands down past his chin. 

 

Don't let opposing coaches put a balk notion in your head, he's just trying to get in F1's head...don't be his conduit.

 

It is not the hands above the chin.

 

Case Play:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION N:

With R1 at third and R2 at first, F1 comes to a complete stop with his glove partially above his chin. Is this legal?

RULING: This is legal.

 

The word partially is the key word in that CB play. Totally above the chin is illegal.

 

also is not the hands. It's the glove.

 

Awesome insight. I'll remember that next time I see F1 come set without his hands in the glove. If you want to dispute the point I was making in post 16, why don't you do it without the nit picking?

[JaxRolo]

Dude chill out. I mean no disrespect and not nit picking. Just posting what the rule says. My apologies

 

@ricka56

[noumpere]

Play: F1 puts the glove on top of his head then takes the rubber and comes set with the hands in front of the chest.

 

Ruling:   lol.

 

Note that in HS they are only required to wear caps and shoes.

[ricka56]

Note that in HS they are only required to wear caps and shoes.

So, are you saying that I should reconsider accepting this assignment between Exhibitionist HS and Exposure HS?  ...maybe they have enthusiastic booster clubs that supports the teams...not to self, verify that my insurance premiums have been paid.

[noumpere]

 

Note that in HS they are only required to wear caps and shoes.

So, are you saying that I should reconsider accepting this assignment between Exhibitionist HS and Exposure HS?  ...maybe they have enthusiastic booster clubs that supports the teams...not to self, verify that my insurance premiums have been paid.

 

No I'm saying you should check to see if college sb has the same rule.