Does this run count - incorrect walk with bases loaded

[Kendall]

Bases loaded.  2-2 count.  The pitcher throws a ball. The batter is confused on the count and runs to first, thinking he walked.  As he takes off to first, all the runners do as well, and the runner from third crosses the plate.  The players in the field are confused and don't tag the runner out coming home.  The ump does not call ball four, simply calling a ball.  Is this live ball and the run counts?

[Rich Ives]

You betcha.

 

No one noticed?  No yelling coaches?  No yelling fans?

 

Maybe it really was ball 4.

[Jocko]

Why wouldn't it be?

[BigUmpire]

I am not sure the batter was " confused"

Trick play that works almost all of the time.

[SnareDrum]

Why wouldn't it be?

Exactly. Why would the ball not be live? A classic breakdown by the the defense and a slow motion triple steal. But the batter should come back to a 3-2 count with R2 & R3... unless one of the umpires is "confused" as well.

[Kendall]

Thanks!  That's the way we called it.  Was just checking as the parents were pretty livid, this being the deciding run of a nine-year old game.  Batter was truly confused and coaches were busy correcting the umpire on the count.  Umpire never ruled walk.

[SnareDrum]

Kendall, hopefully those players will learn from this to always try and remember the count. Hard way to learn though....  and welcome to U-E!

[mstaylor]

Thanks!  That's the way we called it.  Was just checking as the parents were pretty livid, this being the deciding run of a nine-year old game.  Batter was truly confused and coaches were busy correcting the umpire on the count.  Umpire never ruled walk.

With nines, they will always be confused and the parents will always be clueless. Don't let them make you sweat. By the time those nine year olds are 18 they will know what they are doing and the parents will have a better idea  but not completely. 

[johnnyg08]

I am not sure the batter was " confused"

Trick play that works almost all of the time.

 

 

I thought about trying this back in my playing days.  Never had the guts to try it.  Awesome to hear that it worked. 

[Jocko]

Really it's no different than a D3K with 1B occupied & < 2 outs. If the batter runs and F2 throws it, it's still live. The only real difference is I will verbal and mechanic batter out. If DT can't keep up with the count, screw em.

[noumpere]

Announce the count

[NFUA_44]

Announce the count

^^^^^^This.  In your normal manner, same inflection and with hand signals, just like you would on any other situation.  No need to emphasize it or make it louder.  If they don't sort it out in time to take action it's not your job to keep them involved in the game.  The only time I would change this is if a coach would question it relatively quickly as it's happening, at which time I would announce and show him the count just as above so he can shout instructions as needed.

 

Of course it could get really interesting if the defense figures it out half way into things and the mad scramble that would ensue would look like a game of musical chairs with runners scrambling for a base for safe haven.  They might have more luck than a depositor in a Cypress Bank..........a good time would be had by all.

[Jocko]

With a 2-2 count and the next pitch a ball, you should be giving the count anyway. Every 3rd and 5th pitch.

[Stan W.]

You betcha.

 

No one noticed?  No yelling coaches?  No yelling fans?

 

Maybe it really was ball 4.

winner winner, chicken dinner...both teams are expected to know the situation at hand.........

[Guest Ed]

Is the batter not in violation of leaving the batters box without cause. And is not the penalty for this an added strike.

[Guest Ed]

Is the batter not in violation of leaving the batters box without cause. And is not the penalty for this an added strike.

[Guest Ed]

Is the batter not in violation of leaving the batters box without cause. And is not the penalty for this an added strike.

[carolinablue]

Is the batter not in violation of leaving the batters box without cause. And is not the penalty for this an added strike.

 

No.

[Guest Ed]

What does MLB rule 6.02(d)1 refer to?

[carolinablue]

It's refering to a batter that intentionally delays the game by leaving the batter's box when certain conditions were not met. The penalty fot this is a strike called but also gives the umpire the right to issue a warning first.

 

In the case of a batter heading to 1B because he thought it was ball 4, this is usually not intentional but just a confused batter. This is a quite common occurance, especially in the younger divisions. I guess if it were deemed to be intentional, a strike could be called. 

 

The defense has as much responsibility as the offense in knowing the count and number of outs throughout the entire game. As an umpire, if I see this happening, I will announce the count loudly enough for everyone to hear and hopefully that will stop it.

 

Edited to add that the bolded part I would not do ( as was stated in an earlier post ) if it were anything above a 10-11Yo game, but I pictured this as being  something like a 10U game which is where I see this happen the most.

[BuckeyeMike]

As Jax revealed and i abide by, my personal method is to announce every 3rd and 5th pitch.  I also repeat the count on every 3rd foul ball in a row.  Might be overkill, but nobody can dock me for communication in that area. 

[mstaylor]

I generally follow the announce after the third, but then I announce when either it gets to two strikes or three balls. My theory is you should make sure everyone knows when it is a possible strike three or ball four coming. I will give the count after every foul. I give the count then say,"Play." My other exception is I will not announce a 2-1 count. For some reason the only time I bang a third strike on strike two is after I announce 2-1. Don't know why but when it dawned on me that was always the case I simply quit announcing it. Odd but true. 

[Guest Ed]

As mentioned by bigumpire, this is not always confused. In fact it is often a called play, much like the hidden ball trick. It is possible to execute the hidden ball trick within the rules and it is the responsibility of the offense to know where the ball is. This situation however can not be executed legally without the penalty of a strike, unless the umpire choses to issue a warning. In the above situation, the umpire chose to allow it. The above situation does not tell how many outs there were, but with 2 outs if you enforce the penalty of an added strike, the inning is over. There is actually a base running rule that prohibits running the bases backwards to "confuse the defense and/or make a mockery of the game". This "trick play" , intentional or not, should not be allowed to decide the game. If there were only 1 out, which is when I have seen it tried, the batter would become the second out and the runners would be allowed the advanced bases. If it were a 2-1 count, all would be allowed and the count would go to 2-2. However failure to enforce the added strike, just encourages that coach to continue to use that trick play. Not only is it not good for baseball at any level, it teaches the kids that it is ok to break the rules if you don't get punished. It is right there with cutting the corner at 3b on a bunt down first base line with runners on 1st and 2nd and a 2 man umpire crew. Have seen that executed multiple times, even once to win the game. Runner never slowed and was safe by a lot because he never even got close to third base, coach appealed, but neither umpire was looking at third base because there was no play there. I assume the umpires were doing their jobs on the bunt and it is a flaw in the 2 man crew, but still have a problem with that "trick play" also. In the above situation, you are punishing the defensive team for not knowing the situation. The problem is you are rewarding the offensive team, batter in particular, for not knowing the situation. I think that is why you should enforce rule 6.02(d)1 and assign a strike. In the above situation, he did not just start toward first and then return, he went all the way there. It is different, and covered in the rules, to start and return immediately. One final question, have any of you ever had the hidden ball trick executed legally?

[Rich Ives]

As mentioned by bigumpire, this is not always confused. In fact it is often a called play, much like the hidden ball trick. It is possible to execute the hidden ball trick within the rules and it is the responsibility of the offense to know where the ball is. This situation however can not be executed legally without the penalty of a strike, unless the umpire choses to issue a warning. In the above situation, the umpire chose to allow it. The above situation does not tell how many outs there were, but with 2 outs if you enforce the penalty of an added strike, the inning is over. There is actually a base running rule that prohibits running the bases backwards to "confuse the defense and/or make a mockery of the game". This "trick play" , intentional or not, should not be allowed to decide the game. If there were only 1 out, which is when I have seen it tried, the batter would become the second out and the runners would be allowed the advanced bases. If it were a 2-1 count, all would be allowed and the count would go to 2-2. However failure to enforce the added strike, just encourages that coach to continue to use that trick play. Not only is it not good for baseball at any level, it teaches the kids that it is ok to break the rules if you don't get punished. It is right there with cutting the corner at 3b on a bunt down first base line with runners on 1st and 2nd and a 2 man umpire crew. Have seen that executed multiple times, even once to win the game. Runner never slowed and was safe by a lot because he never even got close to third base, coach appealed, but neither umpire was looking at third base because there was no play there. I assume the umpires were doing their jobs on the bunt and it is a flaw in the 2 man crew, but still have a problem with that "trick play" also. In the above situation, you are punishing the defensive team for not knowing the situation. The problem is you are rewarding the offensive team, batter in particular, for not knowing the situation. I think that is why you should enforce rule 6.02(d)1 and assign a strike. In the above situation, he did not just start toward first and then return, he went all the way there. It is different, and covered in the rules, to start and return immediately. One final question, have any of you ever had the hidden ball trick executed legally?

 

 

The highlighted part is absolutely false.

 

And by your reasoning any deke/fake would be illegal.

[mstaylor]

 

One final question, have any of you ever had the hidden ball trick executed legally?

 

Sure have. It's hard to do but not impossible. 

[Guest ed]

I am not sure the batter was " confused"

Trick play that works almost all of the time.

It is more likely at 9 that he was confused, but I agree that the higher levels (13-HS) it is likely a designed trick play called my the coach. This is why I think the umpire should enforce the rule 6.02(d)1 and add a strike to the count. You can not return the runners, they technically stole the bases. It seems unfair to punish the defense for being confused (they definatly were), yet reward the offense for being confused (if they were, which you can not be sure). I also do not think you can do anything further (even though I have been told interference could be called siting the part about "to confuse the defense") because that might be too harsh. Before we get there, lets take it in reverse. The offense starts walking (they were definatly confused) and the defense throws them out (the definatly were not). Well in this case the punishment fits the crime. The offense initiated this action and it is an illegal action by the batter (intentional or not). I am not advocating anything more than the added strike, but a warning in this situation (especially at the higher levels) is asking for continued "trick plays" from some experienced coaches. The umpire should be able to control this. It is clearly a violation of a rule, and to ignore it is not right. There is nothing in the rule about the intent of the batter, only that the umpire can issue a warning on the first offense. (not must, but can). We are not talking about hit by pitch vs no effort to avoid being hit. That is up to the judgement of an umpire, and most good umpires will never call a guy back if the pitch was in his batters box. Of course every blue moon you will get that superstar umpire who will call back the guy who didn't move even though he would have been hit no matter what. So many kids now days turn their back on the inside pitch and actually widen the area that they might be hit in, but I have never seen one called back for that (and never should). If the pitcher comes in the inside batters box, the hit batsman should always be awarded first base. I have seen other trick plays work, one ruled legal execution of the hidden ball trick and the always illegal, but usually sucessful cutting of third on a bunt to score from second with a 2 man crew. In fact I have only seen that caught by the umpires once and he ejected the coach for simply attempting it. I believe it was an unsportsman like conduct ejection.

Needless to say that did not end pretty