Unnannounced Sub or Projected Sub BOO

tldavis19 · March 22, 2013

Jocko, 1 Mexican peso equals about 7.63 Japanese Yen :stir

Also I agree w/ BAM.

The 7 hitter should be on deck already and you should be able to see his number on his jersey and his scorecard that you're looking down at to write your sub. *Light lights* That's not the same guy! "Hey Coach, let me know again when 8 comes up to bat." Just being aware of your surroundings can also curb this situation.

IDK if its anyone else's habit, but it is mine to check the jersey number of the next guy up to make sure I'm not missing anything. its also keeping my head in the game.

Call me stupid if I am haha

bam · March 23, 2013

Keeping track of the batting order isn't our job, until it is, if you know what I mean. So if a coach tells me he's substituting A for B, I need to know that it's a legitimate substitution.

This almost never happens at the higher levels, but is a staple of MS/Frosh/JV ball. I've been through it, so I know. And when it does happen at upper levels, it's kind of obvious.

This falls under "game management" and should never happen to an experienced umpire.

That's not to say it won't happen to ME. It shouldn't happen to a better umpire than me.

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

Start of the inning. JV coach tells me #18 pinch hitting for #16 in the 8 spot. I announce it and #18 steps in and I signal "play". Coach calls time and sends #14, the proper 7 spot batter who was actually due up. I'm thinking I took a projected sub for the 8 spot which was the second slot in the inning. So, since #18 was not a legal sub for #16 yet, he now was an unnanounced sub for #14 in the 7 spot as I had made the ball live. I told the coach and he had no problem having #18 bat for #14. But I'm wondering if my reasoning is correct. In this case if #18 had finished the at bat and the opposing coach appeals that #18 who should have batted in the 8 spot batted instead in the 7 spot do you have an unnanounced sub or BOO?

What it boils down to is whether he is substituting for the batter due up (the 7 slot), or the batter the coach said he was going in for. Since he entered the batters box when the 7 slot was due up, he is now in for whomever was in the 7 slot. Being announced or unannounced is not relevant because they would both be legal. Would not be BOO. I agree with Johnny.

Jimurray · March 23, 2013

Jocko, 1 Mexican peso equals about 7.63 Japanese Yen

Also I agree w/ BAM.

The 7 hitter should be on deck already and you should be able to see his number on his jersey and his scorecard that you're looking down at to write your sub. *Light lights* That's not the same guy! "Hey Coach, let me know again when 8 comes up to bat." Just being aware of your surroundings can also curb this situation.

IDK if its anyone else's habit, but it is mine to check the jersey number of the next guy up to make sure I'm not missing anything. its also keeping my head in the game.

Call me stupid if I am haha

So at the start of the inning 18, the B8 projected sub is in the on deck circle because he's excited to be in the game and B7 is in the dugout because who knows why, you have the wherewithal to recall that B6 was that sides last at bat and would catch this.

Do you pull your line card out for every at bat after you check the jersey number?

mstaylor · March 23, 2013

Start of a half-inning, player originally in the 8 spot comes to bat and says "returning for whatever player is currently in the 8 spot", only the 7 spot is due up?

You still ask if he is leading off. If you forget and they appeal the BOO, the re-entry is for the 7 spot, illegal sub, restricted and out.

Jimurray · March 23, 2013

Start of the inning. JV coach tells me #18 pinch hitting for #16 in the 8 spot. I announce it and #18 steps in and I signal "play". Coach calls time and sends #14, the proper 7 spot batter who was actually due up. I'm thinking I took a projected sub for the 8 spot which was the second slot in the inning. So, since #18 was not a legal sub for #16 yet, he now was an unnanounced sub for #14 in the 7 spot as I had made the ball live. I told the coach and he had no problem having #18 bat for #14. But I'm wondering if my reasoning is correct. In this case if #18 had finished the at bat and the opposing coach appeals that #18 who should have batted in the 8 spot batted instead in the 7 spot do you have an unnanounced sub or BOO?

What it boils down to is whether he is substituting for the batter due up (the 7 slot), or the batter the coach said he was going in for. Since he entered the batters box when the 7 slot was due up, he is now in for whomever was in the 7 slot. Being announced or unannounced is not relevant because they would both be legal. Would not be BOO. I agree with Johnny.

Are you saying that if I had not made the ball live that 14 could not bat and 18 would have to be his sub? I thought entering the batters box meant nothing unless the ball was made live.

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

Start of the inning. JV coach tells me #18 pinch hitting for #16 in the 8 spot. I announce it and #18 steps in and I signal "play". Coach calls time and sends #14, the proper 7 spot batter who was actually due up. I'm thinking I took a projected sub for the 8 spot which was the second slot in the inning. So, since #18 was not a legal sub for #16 yet, he now was an unnanounced sub for #14 in the 7 spot as I had made the ball live. I told the coach and he had no problem having #18 bat for #14. But I'm wondering if my reasoning is correct. In this case if #18 had finished the at bat and the opposing coach appeals that #18 who should have batted in the 8 spot batted instead in the 7 spot do you have an unnanounced sub or BOO?

What it boils down to is whether he is substituting for the batter due up (the 7 slot), or the batter the coach said he was going in for. Since he entered the batters box when the 7 slot was due up, he is now in for whomever was in the 7 slot. Being announced or unannounced is not relevant because they would both be legal. Would not be BOO. I agree with Johnny.

Are you saying that if I had not made the ball live that 14 could not bat and 18 would have to be his sub? I thought entering the batters box meant nothing unless the ball was made live.

I think that you had nothing to do with this error. If the coach caught it immediately, you might have been able to fix it. But this is on the coach, not you. The only thing you might have been able to do was possibly "out of luck" notice the new guy in the lineup and ask him who he's hitting for as a matter of conversation. I'm reaching pretty far with that one. BUT remember one thing, this is a coaching error, not an umpire error IMO.

RichMSN · March 23, 2013

There are two schools of thought:

(1) A projected substitution on offense is one for anyone except the batter coming to the plate. Saying 25 will bat for 13 in the 7 hole when the 5 hole batter is coming to the plate is considered projected.

(2) A projected substitute is one where you make a substitute on offense for anyone and then say something like, "12 will bat for 24 and 24 will reenter." 24 reentering is the projected substitution we won't allow. Or saying that 12 will bat and play third base in the next half of the inning - the defensive part would be projected since the team isn't on defense.

Personally, I have no idea what the rule makers intended. Some areas seem to go by (1) and others seem to go by (2).

If the NFHS would define how it's using the phrase "projected substitutions" it would probably help. FWIW, the BRD only says this: (298/521): The UIC may not accept projected substitutions: Offensive changes must be reported when the team is on offense; defensive changes, when on defense. (3-1-1, 3.1.1e). Naturally 3.1.1e, the only case in the book dealing with a substitution like this, doesn't settle this because in the case the batter being substituted for is the one coming to the plate.

--Rich

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

The coach made a projected substitution. The kid came to hit when he shouldn't have. Now the kid is a legal pinch hitter for a starter.

That's all it is and nothing more.

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

Whenever a coach comes to me and says " # 8 will bat for # 22 who is due up third this inning", I will tell him to let me know when it happens. In the OP, the PU did not know it was a projected substitution so when the sub steps into the box and the ball is made live, he is now a sub for whomever is due to bat. It's really that simple.

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

Whenever a coach comes to me and says " # 8 will bat for # 22 who is due up third this inning", I will tell him to let me know when it happens. In the OP, the PU did not know it was a projected substitution so when the sub steps into the box and the ball is made live, he is now a sub for whomever is due to bat. It's really that simple.

Exactly.

yawetag · March 23, 2013

How about we all email our state interpreters and get the state's stance on whether this is a projected substitute? It will be interesting to see each state's opinions on the matter, and maybe it will lead them to reword the "projected substitution" line in the book.

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

How about we all email our state interpreters and get the state's stance on whether this is a projected substitute? It will be interesting to see each state's opinions on the matter, and maybe it will lead them to reword the "projected substitution" line in the book.

Why?

The rule book is clear. Projected subs are not allowed, so basically I ignore coaches who attempt to make projected subs by telling them they must tell me about the sub when it happens.

Many on this board are doing their best to complicate this simple issue.

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

How about we all email our state interpreters and get the state's stance on whether this is a projected substitute? It will be interesting to see each state's opinions on the matter, and maybe it will lead them to reword the "projected substitution" line in the book.

Why?

The rule book is clear. Projected subs are not allowed, so basically I ignore coaches who attempt to make projected subs by telling them they must tell me about the sub when it happens.

Many on this board are doing their best to complicate this simple issue.

Read my posts from earlier....projected subs are ignored.

UmpJM · March 23, 2013

OK,

One more time, since no one has answered this question:

Same thing happens as in the initial sitch, but nobody catches it at the time.

After the reported sub bats, the #9 guy comes up, and that team proceeds through its batting order IN order.

A couple of innings later, the #7 guy comes up and hits a double that scores two runs. The defense appeals he batted out of order.

What do you do?

JM

For all of you on the "projected subs are not allowed" the "new guy is the #7 batter, even though the coach reported him as the #8 batter" side of this question, how do you address the "couple of innings later" BOO appeal?

Because, by that interpretation, what you have is two players who have been playing in the game for a couple of innings in the same spot in the batting order.

The #7 spot is the proper batter because the #6 batter batted last and was proper.

What is your ruling when the defense appeals BOOT?

JM

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

OK,

One more time, since no one has answered this question:

Same thing happens as in the initial sitch, but nobody catches it at the time.

After the reported sub bats, the #9 guy comes up, and that team proceeds through its batting order IN order.

A couple of innings later, the #7 guy comes up and hits a double that scores two runs. The defense appeals he batted out of order.

What do you do?

JM

For all of you on the "projected subs are not allowed" the "new guy is the #7 batter, even though the coach reported him as the #8 batter" side of this question, how do you address the "couple of innings later" BOO appeal?

Because, by that interpretation, what you have is two players who have been playing in the game for a couple of innings in the same spot in the batting order.

The #7 spot is the proper batter because the #6 batter batted last and was proper.

What is your ruling when the defense appeals BOOT?

JM

Where is the BOO? If the unreported sub is in the 7 hole and the 9 hole bats after that but no appeal is made the 9 hole batter is made legal. Two innings later if they follow the proper order, then I don't see BOO.

UmpJM · March 23, 2013

mrumpiresir,

You've got two guys in the 7 hole.

JM

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

The sub the coach wanted in the 8 hole is actually in the 7 hole. The player who was in the 7 hole has been substituted for. Unless I am misreading your sitch, I only have the previous sub in the 7 hole. When the 7 hole comes up again either the sub bats or the batter who was substituted for bats (reentry) and the previous sub is done for the day.

mrumpiresir · March 23, 2013

mrumpiresir,

You've got two guys in the 7 hole.

JM

Are you saying both the sub and the original batter in the 7 hole have been playing defense for two innings? If so, when the defense appeals you would have to fix it and invoke penalties according to the rules. It sound like a sticky situation but your line up card, if correct, is the proper batting order.

As stated earlier, the responsibility is on the coach to monitor his line up. If it's wrong according to your line up card, then you may have BOO at the time the defense appeals.

UmpJM · March 23, 2013

mrumpiresir,

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying because I believe that is what would likely happen if no one noticed the SNAFU when the sub originally entered the game having been reported as a sub in the #8 hole but batting when the #7 hole was "proper".

Per the initial sitch, your lineup card will show the original #7 batter in the #7 hole, and the "problematic sub" in the #8 hole.

If, as you suggest (and I would concur), the line up card held by the PU defines the proper batting order, the implication is that a team's appeal or failure to appeal a BOO infraction is ultimately determinate of the proper batting order.

Which is clearly contrary to what the rules say.

JM

RichMSN · March 23, 2013

I figured I'd email Carl Childress, since he was likely well aware of the history and the intent of the rule (and a change, if it was a change). Here's his reply, in total, to my message earlier in this thread (which I emailed to him). Clear as mud, as you'll see. My take on his response is this -- find out what local practice is and follow that. Here's the (1) and (2) Carl references again:

(1) A projected substitution on offense is one for anyone except the batter coming to the plate. Saying 25 will bat for 13 in the 7 hole when the 5 hole batter is coming to the plate is considered projected.

(2) A projected substitute is one where you make a substitute on offense for anyone and then say something like, "12 will bat for 24 and 24 will reenter." 24 reentering is the projected substitution we won't allow. Or saying that 12 will bat and play third base in the next half of the inning - the defensive part would be projected since the team isn't on defense.

Personally, I have always told a coach to have the substitute batters report when they come to the plate to hit -- that way if the coach changes his mind he's not locked in. It also avoids any odd BOOT situation and also gets around this whole "is the substitute projected or not" question. That said, a handful of very respected and knowledgable rules guys (not on this thread, but in a private email list I manage) around the country have chimed in with the opposite -- it's not projected since you're taking the change and it's effective immediately, not when the team takes the field or in a subsequent inning. If the team's on offense and it's a change to the batting order, it's not projected, it's a change. The defensive positions would be projected -- and that interpretation deals with the courtesy runner shenanigans that could result otherwise.

I'm not wholly convinced by either argument, to be honest, and I'm a guy who has the reputation as someone who knows the rules inside and out. The NFHS didn't feel the need to define a projected substitute and didn't include a case play that's dispositive. Onto Carl:

--------

The NFHS added the provision in 1983. According to their comment and the
illustrative case play, both (1) and (2) are correct.

Comment on change:

No substitution shall be reported to the umpire-in-chief until such time as
the substitution is actually made. This will preclude any problems that
might occur if a substitute is reported prior to the substitution, and then
the coach changes his mind. [That comment seems to back up Position 1.]

Their case play:

Coach of Team A tells umpire that Jones will hit for Smith and replace Lee
in left field the next time on defense. Ruling: The umpire shall accept the
substitution of Jones hitting for Smith. However, no substitution shall be
reported to the umpire-in-chief until the substitution is actually made.
Therefore, the umpire will tell the coach of Team A to wait until the team
is going on defense before reporting any defensive substitutions.

In truth, I can't see any point in this "dispute." From the beginning of
this "projected substitution rule," every umpire meeting I ever attended or
gave limited it to defensive changes.

Example: Home McAllen leads Donna, 10-0, in the bottom of the fourth. Coach
Pompa comes to me and says: "Carl, Garza will bat for Spelling, Garcia will
bat for Williams, and Gayton will bat for Flores."

I will say: "OK if it becomes important, I'll get those names later."

And we play on.

As my mentor David Mosqueda said: "Don't make trouble for yourself."

I hope this helps. Feel free to share it with anyone, anywhere.

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

Here's all of the FED stuff:

ART. 1 . . . After the umpire has received the official lineup cards prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:

a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,

b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate,

c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or

d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box.

PENALTY: If the starting pitcher does not face one batter, he may play another position, but not return to pitch.

For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. An illegal player discovered on defense shall be restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. If a restricted player re-enters the game on offense, he shall be called out immediately and ejected upon discovery by an umpire or either team. If he is a defensive player, he shall be ejected upon discovery by an umpire or either team.

The penalty for illegal substitution shall supersede the penalty for batting out of order.

If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s) made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch.

In a game-ending situation, discovery must be made before all infielders leave the diamond (i.e., all infielders cross the foul lines).

An illegal player on defense shall be replaced immediately upon discovery by the umpire or either team. If an illegal player on defense is involved in a play, and the infraction is discovered by an umpire or either team prior to the first pitch to the next batter of either team, the team on offense has the option to let the play stand or to allow the batter to bat again.

Any player for whom an illegal player substitutes may re-enter only if he is Âeligible to do so under the re-entry rule (3-1-3).

Some case plays from the rule book:

3.1.1 SITUATION B:

S1, who is an unreported eligible substitute, steps into the batter's box in place of B1, and after the first pitch to S1 (a) member of team at bat discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief; or (b) member of defensive team discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief; or © umpire discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief.

RULING: In (a), (b) and ©, S1 was officially in the game once he entered the batter's box and the ball was live. Therefore, he assumes the count. There is no penalty.

3.1.1 SITUATION A:

B1 has a count of one ball and two strikes when the captain or coach decides to put in pinch hitter S1.

RULING: The coach should ask the umpire to call time to make a substitution. When S1 enters, he is charged with one ball and two strikes. If S1 strikes out, the strikeout and time at bat are charged against B1, since he had more than half of the allotted number of strikes. In any other case, the time at bat is charged to S1. (9-3-6)

3.1.1 SITUATION B:

S1, who is an unreported eligible substitute, steps into the batter's box in place of B1, and after the first pitch to S1 (a) member of team at bat discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief; or (b) member of defensive team discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief; or © umpire discovers that S1 has not been properly reported to umpire-in-chief.

RULING: In (a), (b) and ©, S1 was officially in the game once he entered the batter's box and the ball was live. Therefore, he assumes the count. There is no penalty.

3.1.1 SITUATION C:

S1, who was not a starter and has already been in and out of the game once, appears at bat in place of B2. This is discovered while S1 is at bat by (a) the offensive team; (b) the defensive team; or © an umpire.

RULING: In each case S1 is an illegal substitute and is restricted to the dugout for the duration of the game. He shall also be called out. The penalty for an ineligible substitute supersedes the penalty for batting out of order. The out is credited to F2.

3.1.1 SITUATION D:

S1 enters the game for starter F3. S1 or his coach fails to report to the umpire-in-chief. While S1 is playing, the (a) team at bat; or (b) the defensive team; or © an umpire discovers the infraction. Has F3 been out of the game?

RULING: Yes. F3 may re-enter according to Rule 3-1-3.

3.1.1 SITUATION E:

The coach of Team A tells the umpire that Jones will hit for Smith, who is the next batter, and replace Lee in left field the next time on defense.

RULING: The umpire-in-chief shall accept the substitution of Jones hitting for Smith. However, no substitution shall be reported to the umpire-in-chief until such time as the substitution actually is made. Therefore, the umpire will tell the coach of Team A to wait until his team is going on defense before reporting any defensive substitution.

3.1.1 SITUATION F:

S1 replaces B5 in the third inning. In the seventh inning with two outs, R1 on second and R2 on first, B5 re-enters without reporting. B5 hits to F4 who misplays the ball, and all runners are safe after advancing. The defensive team's coach approaches the plate umpire to question if B5 had been reported.

RULING: S1 is out of the game; B5 is a legal substitute even though he did not report.

3.1.1 SITUATION G:

With two outs and an illegal substitute on second base, B4 hits a home run out of the park. Before the next pitch, the illegal substitute is discovered.

RULING: The illegal substitute is called out and restricted to the bench. No runs score, since the out on the runner at second base was the third out. The home run is nullified. B4 leads off the next inning.

3.1.1 SITUATION H:

S1, an unreported substitute, is batting for B2 instead of B3. While at bat, S1's coach realizes S1 is not batting for the correct player.

RULING: Since S1 became a legal substitute upon entering the batter's box when the ball became live, S1 is officially at bat and B2 is considered out of the game. The next batter is B3. (2-36-2, 3-1-1)

3.1.1 SITUATION I:

S1, who is an illegal substitute, scores, but B4 is thrown out for the third out attempting to advance to second base on a base hit. As both teams change positions, and before a pitch to the next batter can be made, the umpire is informed by the opposing team's coach that S1 is an illegal substitute.

RULING: Even though both teams changed positions, a pitch had not been thrown to the next batter. Therefore, the previous play is nullified. S1 is called out, his run does not count, and B4 shall lead off the next inning. (2-36-3, 3-1-1, 8-4-1k)

3.1.1 SITUATION J:

S1 comes in for F7 in the second inning, but is not discovered. In the seventh inning, S1 comes in for F8 and is batting when the opposing team contends that S1 was a substitute earlier in the game.

RULING: Unless the umpire has knowledge that S1 had in fact been in the game earlier, S1 cannot be treated as an illegal substitute.

3.1.1 SITUATION K:

(a) Before the pregame conference, or (b) after the pre-game conference, Team A's coach decides not to start F1.

RULING: Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the umpire-in-chief during the pregame conference. In (a), lineup changes may be made without penalty. In (b) unless F1 is injured, ill or ejected, or removed by his coach for disciplinary reasons, F1 shall pitch to one batter. If F1 does not pitch to one batter, F1 shall not pitch for the remainder of the game, but he may play another position. (1-1-1, 3-1-1)

3.1.1 SITUATION L:

With one out and R1 on third, S1, an illegal substitute, bats and hits an inside-the-park home run, scoring R1 and himself. The illegal substitute is detected by the opposing team (a) before the next pitch or (b) after a pitch to the next batter.

RULING: In (a), the illegal substitute is declared out and restricted to the bench. The runner before him will be placed back on third. In (b), since the pitch has been thrown, the illegal substitute is no longer on the bases and the play stands and both runs count.

3.1.1 SITUATION M:

With the bases loaded and two outs, an illegal substitute (a) hits a home run or (b) while at bat, F1 throws a wild pitch, which allows R1 to score. The illegal substitute is detected before the next pitch.

RULING: In (a), the illegal substitute is restricted to the bench and no runs score because the illegal substitute was the third out. In (b), the run counts and the illegal substitute is declared out and restricted to the bench. The inning is over.

3.1.1 SITUATION N:

Smith is the catcher and Jones is the left fielder as their team leaves the field to come to bat. Their coach tells U1 that Smith will go to left field and Jones will go in as catcher when the team returns to defense. The coach is really wishing to make the change so that the slower Jones can have a courtesy runner if he gets on base in the half-inning.

RULING: The umpire shall not allow a projected substitution. Therefore, a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat. (Courtesy Runner Rules)

3.1.1 SITUATION O:

S1, who is an illegal substitute, is discovered playing second base and who was previously restricted to the dugout.

RULING: S1 is ejected upon discovery by an umpire or either team.

3.1.1 SITUATION P:

With runners on second and third bases, respectively, S1, who is an illegal substitute, and was previously restricted to the dugout, bats and advances to second base.

RULING: S1 is called out and ejected. All other runners are returned to bases occupied at the time of the pitch.

3.1.1 SITUATION Q:

With R1 on first base, B2 doubles and, (a) before the next pitch R1 is discovered to be an illegal player, (b) after the next pitch R1 is discovered to be an illegal player.

RULING: In both (a) and (b), R1 is out and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

3.1.1 SITUATION R:

In the first inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the pitcher. In the second inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the catcher.

RULING: Upon discovery, C1 is called out and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

johnnyg08 · March 23, 2013

I figured I'd email Carl Childress, since he was likely well aware of the history and the intent of the rule (and a change, if it was a change). Here's his reply, in total, to my message earlier in this thread (which I emailed to him). Clear as mud, as you'll see. My take on his response is this -- find out what local practice is and follow that. Here's the (1) and (2) Carl references again:
(1) A projected substitution on offense is one for anyone except the batter coming to the plate. Saying 25 will bat for 13 in the 7 hole when the 5 hole batter is coming to the plate is considered projected.
(2) A projected substitute is one where you make a substitute on offense for anyone and then say something like, "12 will bat for 24 and 24 will reenter." 24 reentering is the projected substitution we won't allow. Or saying that 12 will bat and play third base in the next half of the inning - the defensive part would be projected since the team isn't on defense.
Personally, I have always told a coach to have the substitute batters report when they come to the plate to hit -- that way if the coach changes his mind he's not locked in. It also avoids any odd BOOT situation and also gets around this whole "is the substitute projected or not" question. That said, a handful of very respected and knowledgable rules guys (not on this thread, but in a private email list I manage) around the country have chimed in with the opposite -- it's not projected since you're taking the change and it's effective immediately, not when the team takes the field or in a subsequent inning. If the team's on offense and it's a change to the batting order, it's not projected, it's a change. The defensive positions would be projected -- and that interpretation deals with the courtesy runner shenanigans that could result otherwise.
I'm not wholly convinced by either argument, to be honest, and I'm a guy who has the reputation as someone who knows the rules inside and out. The NFHS didn't feel the need to define a projected substitute and didn't include a case play that's dispositive. Onto Carl:
--------
The NFHS added the provision in 1983. According to their comment and the
illustrative case play, both (1) and (2) are correct.
Comment on change:
No substitution shall be reported to the umpire-in-chief until such time as
the substitution is actually made. This will preclude any problems that
might occur if a substitute is reported prior to the substitution, and then
the coach changes his mind. [That comment seems to back up Position 1.]
Their case play:
Coach of Team A tells umpire that Jones will hit for Smith and replace Lee
in left field the next time on defense. Ruling: The umpire shall accept the
substitution of Jones hitting for Smith. However, no substitution shall be
reported to the umpire-in-chief until the substitution is actually made.
Therefore, the umpire will tell the coach of Team A to wait until the team
is going on defense before reporting any defensive substitutions.
In truth, I can't see any point in this "dispute." From the beginning of
this "projected substitution rule," every umpire meeting I ever attended or
gave limited it to defensive changes.
Example: Home McAllen leads Donna, 10-0, in the bottom of the fourth. Coach
Pompa comes to me and says: "Carl, Garza will bat for Spelling, Garcia will
bat for Williams, and Gayton will bat for Flores."
I will say: "OK if it becomes important, I'll get those names later."
And we play on.
As my mentor David Mosqueda said: "Don't make trouble for yourself."
I hope this helps. Feel free to share it with anyone, anywhere.

In NCAA I haven't read anything about projected subs. (That's what I believe the guys on your email list using) My understanding of NCAA is that when the coach tells you the change, then it's the change...meaning there's no such thing as a projected sub. In FED that's not the case. See case plays above.

basejester · March 23, 2013

Same thing happens as in the initial sitch, but nobody catches it at the time.

After the reported sub bats, the #9 guy comes up, and that team proceeds through its batting order IN order.

A couple of innings later, the #7 guy comes up and hits a double that scores two runs. The defense appeals he batted out of order.

What do you do?

JM
---
For all of you on the "projected subs are not allowed" the "new guy is the #7 batter, even though the coach reported him as the #8 batter" side of this question, how do you address the "couple of innings later" BOO appeal?

I'm taking a stab at this question for my own education.

Original Batting Order

1

2

3

4

5

6

14

16

9

After implicit substitution

1

2

3

4

5

6

18

16

9

If the 9 slots bats out of order in the original inning, and no one catches it then, and #14 bats in a later inning instead of #18, that would be a re-entry.

RichMSN · March 23, 2013

In NCAA I haven't read anything about projected subs. (That's what I believe the guys on your email list using) My understanding of NCAA is that when the coach tells you the change, then it's the change...meaning there's no such thing as a projected sub. In FED that's not the case. See case plays above.

------

No, the private email list is talking about NFHS rules.

BTW, if you'd like an invite, let me know. We need some fresh meat ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H new blood. yawetag is a member - he can let you know what it's like.

Unnannounced Sub or Projected Sub BOO

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