Unnannounced Sub or Projected Sub BOO

[johnnyg08]

In the FED Preseason Guide, I found a section in there regarding Projected Substitutions.  I will scan and upload for your reading pleasure. 

 

[Jimurray]

In the FED Preseason Guide, I found a section in there regarding Projected Substitutions.  I will scan and upload for your reading pleasure. 

 

Nothing in here pertains to the original OP or it's possible ramifications. In fact it might support Ump JM. "Offensives subs must be given while a team is at bat."

And in fact if you take guidance from this pub explain play 2 to me.

But I think FED should join the OBR and NCAA party and have some specific rules to prevent sharpshooting the CR and reentry problems. OR define projected subs.

[johnnyg08]

I did notice that these situations do not directly relate to the OP.  

 

Coincidentally, FED did publish information regarding projected subs for 2013 so I thought I'd add it to the thread.

[johnnyg08]

Here's one of the case plays I posted earlier:

 

 

3.1.1 SITUATION H:

 

S1, an unreported substitute, is batting for B2 instead of B3. While at bat, S1's coach realizes S1 is not batting for the correct player.

RULING: Since S1 became a legal substitute upon entering the batter's box when the ball became live, S1 is officially at bat and B2 is considered out of the game. The next batter is B3. (2-36-2, 3-1-1)

[Welpe]

Reading the preseason guide, it seems the intent of the Fed is to define projected substitutions according to #2 in Rich's post. I agree with JM's interpretation and handling of this play. It just also happens to be the cleanest way this situation works out and the manager gets the substitution he intended to make.

[tldavis19]

B7 is due up. A substitution is made for B8. The substitute for B8 comes up to bat. S1 is now B8. B8 is BOO because B7 is due up and skipped. Coach gets the sub he wants and if appealed before the end of the at bat, B8 will take a seat and B7 will finish the at bat. The sub is for B8. That's the way coach wants it, that's the way he gets it. Not our job to play band-aid when the new sub bats out of order. He's on my lineup card as B8, announced and in the game batting out of order. Play Ball.

 

Just do what the coach asks, nothing more. If it gets screwed up, its on him. Its his batting order to pay attention to.

[alex7]

johnny,

 

Sure he did. He's in the 8 spot on the umpire's lineup card and he batted when the 7 spot was due to bat.

 

JM

 

JM, I hope post 129 convinces you. I applaud your tenacity but it's all for naught if you don't fix your thinking on this.

 

He's in the 8 spot because the umpire accepted a projected sub!

Being that you CAN'T accept the projected sub, you must undo it in your line-up card.  It could NOT have happened. That player is NOT in the 8 spot, that would be against the rules.  Therefore, he slides into the legal 7 spot when he steps into the box to start the inning.

[alex7]

tldavis,

 

read post above.  He CAN'T be accepted into the 8 spot unless it's NCAA rules. That's a projected sub, and not allowed in FED.

[tldavis19]

It's not projected if the coach legitimately thinks B8 is due up. Not our job to guess intent nor is it our job to tell the coach B7 is up. If he wants to make that mistake, let him. You can't help a coach fix a situation. His mistake that he has to live with

[johnnyg08]

It's not projected if the coach legitimately thinks B8 is due up. Not our job to guess intent nor is it our job to tell the coach B7 is up. If he wants to make that mistake, let him. You can't help a coach fix a situation. His mistake that he has to live with

 

 

I don't think that's the right play to apply the rule.  

[Jocko]

It's not projected if the coach legitimately thinks B8 is due up. Not our job to guess intent nor is it our job to tell the coach B7 is up. If he wants to make that mistake, let him. You can't help a coach fix a situation. His mistake that he has to live with

Regardless of which slot is up, it's projected if THAT slot is not due up. You can't alow it because it's against the rules. He may well be wrong in who he thinks is due, bt you can't allow it because it violates a rule.

[UmpJM]

alex,

 

Post 129 cites a case play with an UNREPORTED sub. Our sitch deals with a REPORTED sub. 

 

He is not a projected sub - he entered the game immediately.

 

No rule has been violated.

 

JM

[tldavis19]

Unless you're following the batting order, how do you know he's not right? How do you know he's projecting? It's been stated that its not our job to follow his batting order. So if he subs for B8 and B8 comes up to bat, he's not projecting. He's subbing for his 8 slot which is BOO. Even in the OP the only way the umpire knew it was a projected sub was that the coach corrected his own error. Now if he wants to correct his own error and leave the sub in for B7 and let B8 remain in the game, that's fine. His call, not mine. I'm not going to help a coach fix his mistake. He gets paid to coach, I get paid to umpire.

If the sub bats for B8 who as far as anyone knows is up next and gets on base and the defense appeals BOO and is correct, there's no back tracking. B8 batted out of order. If coach whines, tell him to keep a better handle on his batting order. That's just how I feel. The unannounced sub thing is correct, but I'm not going to offer up free information to save a coaches rear. He has to catch it himself.

[johnnyg08]

Because when it comes to your attention and now you have to fix it, the pinch hitter batted for B7 which is an unannounced, legal sub.

 

It's not BOO.  

[mrumpiresir]

He was reported in the 8 slot. He batted in the 7 slot. he was unreported in the 7 slot. The unreported sub is now batting for the player who was in the 7 slot.

[mrumpiresir]

Since we can't seem to find a rule that covers this particular situation, whatever the PU rules, whether it be JM's interpretation, or mine, would probably be correct.  This may be one of the rare situations where rule 10.2.3G may apply.

 

Should a coach decide to protest this ruling, what rule will he cite?

[UmpJM]

He was reported. Therefore, by definition, he is NOT an "unreported sub".

 

He batted out of order in the 8 spot.

 

I agree that it is a "point not covered" - so you probably can't be "protestably wrong".

 

JM

[mrumpiresir]

This thread has run it's course and we are not getting anywhere.  It's time to retire to the bar and enjoy our favorite beverage as we discuss other things.

[Jocko]

He was reported in the 8 slot. He batted in the 7 slot. he was unreported in the 7 slot. The unreported sub is now batting for the player who was in the 7 slot.

^^^^^^ This is the most appproprite 'fix' IMO. OTHC goofed. I'm not bailing him out, I'm fixing his screw up in the most amicable way for both teams. I see and understand those in the BOO corner, I just don't think it's the most rule apprporiate. If I rule it that way, I've allowed a projected sub. Intentional or not, if he subs for someone before they are up, it's projected. And projected is illegal. I cannot allow an illegal act, even after the fact. Rewriting my card and fixing HC's foul up is, to me, the most rule-accurate way to unf*ck this situation.

[Welpe]

I guess it really depends upon what the definition of "is" is.

 

I think most of us can agree the disagreement in this thread comes down to one fundamental difference and that is the definition of what is a projected substitution.

 

The Fed never seems to clearly define it but the pre-season guide that Johnny posted may be a clue as to how they intend it to be defined. This is not as cut and dried as one may think.

[tldavis19]

I'm still of the opinion you're fixing a coach's mistake. If the sub gets on base and the DC appeals BOO, what then? Do you open your mouth to save the OC's rear? Or leave it up to the OC to figure out? I'm not going to bring it up, but if the coach asks I'll tell him then that he can be an unreported sub. I won't offer it up as free information.

[johnnyg08]

It's not BOO.  You can't get an out on this for BOO.  The sub wasn't previously in the game to be BOO.  How can you be out of order of a lineup you weren't a part of until you legally stepped into the box?  

[Jocko]

^ What he said ^

[UmpJM]

It is BOO.  You can get an out on this for BOO.  The sub was legally reported and immediately entered the game in the wrong batting order spot..  How can you not be out of order when the umpire's lineup card shows you in the 8 spot and you batted when the 7 spot was due up?

 

JM

[sdix00]