Unnannounced Sub or Projected Sub BOO

[Jimurray]

 Start of the inning. JV coach tells me #18 pinch hitting for #16 in the 8 spot. I announce it and #18 steps in and I signal "play". Coach calls time and sends #14, the proper 7 spot batter who was actually due up. I'm thinking I took a projected sub for the 8 spot which was the second slot in the inning. So, since #18 was not a legal sub for #16 yet, he now was an unnanounced sub for #14 in the 7 spot as I had made the ball live. I told the coach and he had no problem having #18 bat for #14. But I'm wondering if my reasoning is correct. In this case if #18 had finished the at bat and the opposing coach appeals that #18 who should have batted in the 8 spot batted instead in the 7 spot do you have an unnanounced sub or BOO? 

[UmpJM]

Jimurray,

 

Perplexing, indeed.

 

I don't know that  there is a "definitive" answer on this one.

 

I believe I would have treated it as a "proper sub" of an "improper batter".

 

There is no rule against a team sending the #8 batter to bat when the #7 batter is due up. They're just subjecting themselves to the penalty should the defense properly appeal. Since it was reported to you and you announced it, I would have let that sub stand. Since the offense then put in the proper batter before the improper batter completed his at bat, everything's copacetic.

 

Not suggesting that's "better" or "more correct" than what you did, just how (I think) I would have handled it.

 

JM

[mtnump]

NFHS 7.1.1.  If the BOO is detected before the batter is put out, the correct batter replaces the incorrect batter and assumes any count.  Your 7 hole should have been allowed to come to the plate with no penalty as a pitch had not been thrown and therefore no count.  If the sub hadn't been announced for the 8 hole, I would have gone unannounced sub.

[Jimurray]

I think I overthunk this one. Imagine me splaining to the defense if a BOO was appealed that the sub I announced as B8 was legal batting as B7 because because he was "projected".

[johnnyg08]

Don't over think this.  

 

This is not BOO.  

 

Projected subs aren't legal.  All you have is a pinch hitter in the 7 spot. 

 

That's all. 

[sdix00]

I have no specific rule or case play to back this up, but this is what I would have done.

 

Since there is a rule that covers an improper batter coming to the plate, I think the substitute (#18/B8) is legal, and the substitute is now the improper batter once you called "play".   Had there been no announcement of the substitution, I would have entered #18 as B7.  

 

--

Johnny08,

If I read what you said correctly, I think you are saying it is impossible to have BOO when a substitute enters on Offense?

[johnnyg08]

Just b/c the manager or player screws up, doesn't make it illegal.  

 

If the sub is legal, put him in the game and move on.  

 

 

What am I missing here?  I expected this thread to be all said and done long ago...maybe I misread something?

[sdix00]

I think you are saying that #18 is placed in the B7 spot and I am saying he is placed in the B8 spot.   I am hoping to find out if I am wrong on this. 

[johnnyg08]

If he shows up in the B7 spot, and if legal, he's now in the B7 spot.  Pick another sub for B8.  Plain and simple.

[noumpere]

If he shows up in the B7 spot, and if legal, he's now in the B7 spot.  Pick another sub for B8.  Plain and simple.

Sure, if he just shows up.  And if he shows up and says "I'm a new batter" or something like that.

 

But when the coach gives you "18 for 8" and you write that down and tell the other team that it's "18 for 8" then it IS 18 for 8 and now 18 is BOO.

[UmpJM]

johnny,

 

He didn't "just show up" - he was reported and announced.

 

A "projected sub" is when the coach tells you he is going to bring in a sub at a later point in the game. This sub entered the game immediately. 

 

He just started an at bat in the wrong spot in the order.

 

As I said in my first post, I don't believe there is a "definitive" answer to this one - but it's not as "cut and dried" as you suggest.

 

JM

[johnnyg08]

When is a player in the game in FED?  

 

I still don't think we have BOO

[sdix00]

 

 

3-1-1 

SECTION 1 SUBSTITUTING

ART. 1 . . . After the umpire has received the official lineup cards prior to the

game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has

been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may

replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The

umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and

then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected sub-

stitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared

live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a

substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:

a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,

b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate,

c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or

d. a batter takes his place in the batter’s box

 

[johnnyg08]

.

[johnnyg08]

Didn't see Steven's post.   See, this isn't BOO, the sub is in for B7.  

[Jocko]

This one is giving me indigestion. I see both sides.

[johnnyg08]

johnny,

 

He didn't "just show up" - he was reported and announced.

 

A "projected sub" is when the coach tells you he is going to bring in a sub at a later point in the game. This sub entered the game immediately. 

 

He just started an at bat in the wrong spot in the order.

 

As I said in my first post, I don't believe there is a "definitive" answer to this one - but it's not as "cut and dried" as you suggest.

 

JM

 

 

With all due respect, I think it is pretty cut and dried.  That being said, I'm not an authority on FED rules.  

 

If I'm wrong, I'm open to hearing why I am wrong.  Right now, I don't think we have anything except screwing up the substitution.

[johnnyg08]

Start of the inning. JV coach tells me #18 pinch hitting for #16 in the 8 spot. I announce it and #18 steps in and I signal "play". Coach calls time and sends #14, the proper 7 spot batter who was actually due up. I'm thinking I took a projected sub for the 8 spot which was the second slot in the inning. So, since #18 was not a legal sub for #16 yet, he now was an unnanounced sub for #14 in the 7 spot as I had made the ball live. I told the coach and he had no problem having #18 bat for #14. But I'm wondering if my reasoning is correct. In this case if #18 had finished the at bat and the opposing coach appeals that #18 who should have batted in the 8 spot batted instead in the 7 spot do you have an unnanounced sub or BOO?

What hitter is leading off the inning? I see that we have 18 for 16 in the 8 spot.

So just to be sure, we have 18 hitting for 14 in the 7 spot right?

yeah, you have 18 hitting for 14. Done. Even though it should've been 18 for 16, (that is a project substitution which is the same as the coach saying nothing because you can't project a sub)

The coach wanted to make a projected sub (but can't so it's treated like coach didn't say anything), but his kid apparently so excited to enter the game, did so in the 7 spot, not the 8 spot.

Unannounced, legal sub in the 7 spot. done.

[Jocko]

While I think I agree with JohnnyG, this is going to be aa haard sell on HC. I don't keep up with who is at bat unless someone bring it to my attention. So, say HC comes out to sub thinking he's in the 8 hole but really the 7. He would've had a BOO because he waas wrong in the order. The sub saved his BOO?

[UmpJM]

johnny,

 

He was ANNOUNCED, so he's NOT an "unannounced sub".

 

He entered the game IMMEDIATELY, so it's NOT a "projected sub".

 

He is a legal, announced sub batting in the wrong lineup spot.

 

JM

[Jocko]

Dammit Yoda. I was thinking Johnny had it down and there you go clouding the issue with facts. Sh*t!

I still see the other side as well. :censored:

[UmpJM]

Like I said, I don't know that there IS a "definitive" answer.

 

JM

[johnnyg08]

johnny,

 

He was ANNOUNCED, so he's NOT an "unannounced sub".

 

He entered the game IMMEDIATELY, so it's NOT a "projected sub".

 

He is a legal, announced sub batting in the wrong lineup spot.

 

JM

 

 

No he's not.  Even though it looks that way, by rule this isn't BOO.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say you can't project a sub, then project a sub.  The coach projected the substitution (can't do that) The player entered the game in the "wrong" spot, contrary to the coach's wishes, but not really b/c you can't project a substitution.  He enters the game in the 7 spot hitting for the 7th hitter.  

[johnnyg08]

Like I said, I don't know that there IS a "definitive" answer.

 

JM

 

 

Your statement here might be right.  But if there's not a definitive answer, then doesn't it have to be legal?  

[mstaylor]

The sub will be the sub for the 7 spot. When you announced the sub for the eight spot then somebody should have  caught it. When the offense realized  the wrong batter was up, you tell him that the  sub is legally in the seven spot, change your line-up and tell the defense. The offense may be mad, but touch noogies. As the PU, the proper way to avoid this is when he comes out to give you the sub you ask," Is he the lead-off?" If the answer is no then tell him to give it to you when he comes up. I don't track batters either, too many other things to worry about. Then if he comes in the wrong spot then he is an unreported sub, he's in, no problem. It just makes it cleaner.