Awards on balks

[BigUmpire]

Do you award a ball to the batter on a balk?

 

Settle this bet for me please!

[Jocko]

No. A balk is just a balk. In OBR, it's not a dead ball, so the PITCH can be a ball (if he pitches, and it's a ball). In FED, it's dead. There can be no pitch.

[Richvee]

Settled

[JaxRolo]

No No No

[BigUmpire]

If no pitch, no ball is awarded-Correct?

[Jocko]

Do you award a ball to the batter on a balk? Settle this bet for me please!

This is actually a good question. There are some new umpires here and may not know the answer definitively. Thanks for bringing this up. There are 2 situations where illegal action by F1 is penalized.

1) without baserunners

2) with baserunners

WITHOUT baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by adding a ball to the count

WITH baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by awarding all baserunners 1 base

See my previous post for the different rule set varitions

[noumpere]

Do you award a ball to the batter on a balk? Settle this bet for me please!

This is actually a good question. There are some new umpires here and may not know the answer definitively. Thanks for bringing this up. There are 2 situations where illegal action by F1 is penalized.

1) without baserunners

2) with baserunners

WITHOUT baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by adding a ball to the count

WITH baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by awarding all baserunners 1 base

See my previous post for the different rule set varitions

Good points.  Need to add that the definition of infractions might change under OBR if there are no runners.  Under FED it's the same or nearly so so you can get a ball on an illegal action.

[noumpere]

No. A balk is just a balk. In OBR, it's not a dead ball, so the PITCH can be a ball (if he pitches, and it's a ball). In FED, it's dead. There can be no pitch.

In OBR I think thats only true it the pitch is ball 4 and all runners and the batter advance during the play.  Otherwise the pitch is disregarded.

[sdix00]

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

[Jocko]

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play.  IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire.  IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

Thanks for clarifying. Great post.

BJ, There's no substitute for reading the rule book. When asked a question on the field you want solid rule knowledge on your side. Asking on here is a great way to get the information you seek, but you should also read it for yourself. When HC asks, you want more than "That's what I read on U-E." Also, when you do ask a question, state what ruleset you need answer for. Welcome aboard.

[noumpere]

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

I disagree with your second sentence.

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

 

Here's the college rule on it and even though it says "beyond" it means "to or beyond" as is clear from other parts of the rule, but I think the pro rule is the same:

A.R. 3 - If the balk is followed by a wild pitch that allows a runner to attempt to go beyond the base that he would have been awarded because of the balk, the runner advances at his own risk; he is either safe or out as a result of the play. The balk is still "acknowledged" as it relates to the batter and he will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred.

[sdix00]

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

I disagree with your second sentence.

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

 

Here's the college rule on it and even though it says "beyond" it means "to or beyond" as is clear from other parts of the rule, but I think the pro rule is the same:

A.R. 3 - If the balk is followed by a wild pitch that allows a runner to attempt to go beyond the base that he would have been awarded because of the balk, the runner advances at his own risk; he is either safe or out as a result of the play. The balk is still "acknowledged" as it relates to the batter and he will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred.

 

 

Interesting.  I need to look at this. 

 

Thanks

 

 

EDIT:

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. 

My second sentence is "IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. "

 

Are you saying it is possible for a pitch to be ruled a ball/strike when a balk was NOT disregarded?

 

In your AR, the balk was NOT disregarded (it was still "enforced" as it pertains to the batter), and a ball/strike was NOT awarded, which was my original point.  

 

What am I missing?

[BigUmpire]

WOW

I am still confused.

[Jocko]

OBR - For a balk to be disregarded, all runners must advance 1 base beyond where they were at the TOP (time of pitch). If this isn't the case, the balk is upheld and the batter resumes the same count he had at TOP (no ball or strike added to the count). So if the batter gets a base hit and all baserunners advance, play on as if there were no balk.

FED - Balk kills the ball. If the batter hits a grand slam, tough cookies. Award runners 1 base and put the batter in the box as if the pitch never happened.

[sdix00]

WOW

I am still confused.

 

Sorry about that.   Some of us (code for "me") like to get caught up in the minutiae. 

 

The simple answer to your question is the first answer to your question.  "No".

[BigUmpire]

I go more NO votes from this forum that yes votes on this one.

I win the bet!

Thanks

 

BTW I really dont like FED rules!

[Jocko]

I go more NO votes from this forum that yes votes on this one.I win the bet!Thanks BTW I really dont like FED rules!

who gave a yes vote?

[bam]

Well, don't forget about illegal pitch (balk with runners on).  THAT'S a ball.

[Rich Ives]

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

I disagree with your second sentence.

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

OBR:

 

The runner gets the next base because of the balk, not because he was stealing on the pitch.

 

He cannot keep going because: If the batter does not put the ball in play the play is dead as soon as the catcher secures the ball.  2012 MLBUM Article 53(3) page 64.

 

The only time the runner can keep going is if the pitcher balks and throws wild such as on a pickoff that eludes the fielder, or a wild pitch.

[noumpere]

 

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

I disagree with your second sentence.

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

OBR:

 

The runner gets the next base because of the balk, not because he was stealing on the pitch.

 

He cannot keep going because: If the batter does not put the ball in play the play is dead as soon as the catcher secures the ball.  2012 MLBUM Article 53(3) page 64.

 

The only time the runner can keep going is if the pitcher balks and throws wild such as on a pickoff that eludes the fielder, or a wild pitch.

I didn't say anything about the catcher catching the pitch.  If it makes it better, make it read specifically that it was a wild pitch or a past ball.  R1 ends up at third.  IGNORE the balk for the runner, but ACKNOWLEDGE the balk for the batter (the count remains the same as before the ptich -- here 0-0)

[Rich Ives]

 

 

To be clear, There will NEVER be a Ball/Strike AND a Balk awarded on the same play. 

 

IF the balk meets the criteria to be disregarded, then the pitch counts and it is either a ball or a strike as judged by the umpire. 

 

IF the balk is enforced, then the pitch never happened.  Even if the pitcher finished his delivery and the catcher is holding the ball - if the balk is enforced, there is no ball or strike called. 

I disagree with your second sentence.

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

OBR:

 

The runner gets the next base because of the balk, not because he was stealing on the pitch.

 

He cannot keep going because: If the batter does not put the ball in play the play is dead as soon as the catcher secures the ball.  2012 MLBUM Article 53(3) page 64.

 

The only time the runner can keep going is if the pitcher balks and throws wild such as on a pickoff that eludes the fielder, or a wild pitch.

I didn't say anything about the catcher catching the pitch.  If it makes it better, make it read specifically that it was a wild pitch or a past ball.  R1 ends up at third.  IGNORE the balk for the runner, but ACKNOWLEDGE the balk for the batter (the count remains the same as before the ptich -- here 0-0)

 

You need then, to make it specifically say a wild pitch or passed ball (or a wold throw)  because that's a specific requirement to ignore the balk for the runner. And I said that.

[BigUmpire]

I go more NO votes from this forum that yes votes on this one.I win the bet!Thanks BTW I really dont like FED rules!

who gave a yes vote?

You did " WITHOUT baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by adding a ball to the count"

 

[UmpJM]

bjump,

 

By definition, a balk can ONLY occur when there are base runners.

 

So no one said that balks are penalized with a ball. Because they're not - ever.

 

Also, Jocko's assertion is not entirely correct. 

 

JM

[Jocko]

I go more NO votes from this forum that yes votes on this one.I win the bet!Thanks BTW I really dont like FED rules!

who gave a yes vote?You did " WITHOUT baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by adding a ball to the count" WITHOUT baserunners, there's no such thing as a balk.

[noumpere]

 

 

 

Suppose theres R1 and no count.  R1 steals on the pitch, the pitcher balks for not stopping and delivers a pitch thats called a ball.  The runner safely makes it to second (or third or home -- yikes!).

 

The ruling is that the runner keeps the advance base but the balk is still acknowledged for the batter.  That is theres still no count.

OBR:

 

The runner gets the next base because of the balk, not because he was stealing on the pitch.

 

He cannot keep going because: If the batter does not put the ball in play the play is dead as soon as the catcher secures the ball.  2012 MLBUM Article 53(3) page 64.

 

The only time the runner can keep going is if the pitcher balks and throws wild such as on a pickoff that eludes the fielder, or a wild pitch.

I didn't say anything about the catcher catching the pitch.  If it makes it better, make it read specifically that it was a wild pitch or a past ball.  R1 ends up at third.  IGNORE the balk for the runner, but ACKNOWLEDGE the balk for the batter (the count remains the same as before the ptich -- here 0-0)

 

You need then, to make it specifically say a wild pitch or passed ball (or a wold throw)  because that's a specific requirement to ignore the balk for the runner. And I said that.

Agreed.  I think all of us are on the same page now just talking past each other.

[spiritump]

 

Do you award a ball to the batter on a balk? Settle this bet for me please!

This is actually a good question. There are some new umpires here and may not know the answer definitively. Thanks for bringing this up. There are 2 situations where illegal action by F1 is penalized.

1) without baserunners

you can not have a balk without baserunners

2) with baserunners

WITHOUT baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by adding a ball to the count

WITH baserunners, infractions by F1 are penalized by awarding all baserunners 1 base

See my previous post for the different rule set varitions