Rules Quiz-You Make the Call

[AZump78]

Because its not an out! You called time before it was caught-remember?

In the case of a fair ball, the IFF was called BEFORE the INT. In the case of the caught foul ball, the catch occurred after the INT-thus time was already out.

You are only factoring in fair/foul for the purposes of placing the batter/batter-runner. Caught or uncaught matters not.

Had the IFF not been in effect, (say R2, R3, no outs) the BR would be awarded first had the ball been fair-even if the ball is caught!

(And, yes, before someone chimes in you can get two outs had the INT been an obvious attempt to break up a double play.)

[AZump78]

Think back to the play in LA... they kept the ball alive as you should, and I dont have my PBUC book, but i believe in a play like this, the ball should be keep live..cause if it lands fair or fould ( just like in LA) you have different awards.

That is a very good point about keeping the ball live as long as possible b/c of the different awards.

I see HDS's point, he's a sharp guy, but its not backed up by a rule, approved ruling, or interpretation, making it incorrect. If there was a protest-you would lose!

And since we are talking about OBR and NCAA rules in this situation, you might even get fired!!!

Unlike a MLB crew at a Dodger game, we amateur umpires aren't allowed (nor are we qualified) to create interps on the fly.

If someone can provide something in print supporting the use of a delayed dead ball for certain runner interference situations, I'll gladly stand corrected.

[th3]

So if they catch the foul fly ball he gets back up, but if they drop the fair fly ball he's out! that's beautiful...

[Jocko]

Because its not an out! You called time before it was caught-remember?

In the case of a fair ball, the IFF was called BEFORE the INT. In the case of the caught foul ball, the catch occurred after the INT-thus time was already out.

You are only factoring in fair/foul for the purposes of placing the batter/batter-runner. Caught or uncaught matters not.

Had the IFF not been in effect, (say R2, R3, no outs) the BR would be awarded first had the ball been fair-even if the ball is caught!

(And, yes, before someone chimes in you can get two outs had the INT been an obvious attempt to break up a double play.)

crystal clear. Thank you. I'll remember this because I kinda got egg on my face. Again, better here than on the field!

[AZump78]

I don't see it as egg on face and doubt anyone else here does either.

[johnnyg08]

So if they catch the foul fly ball he gets back up, but if they drop the fair fly ball he's out! that's beautiful...

Right, but he's out b/c of the infield fly. Not the Interference.

[Jocko]

This is reminiscent (spelling?) of whether the runner passed 2B before the force was removed appeal. Take it in steps. If this/then that. Algebra.

Great post CB! Think like an umpire.

[UmpTTS43]

Since bases were loaded, if the IFF was declared prior to the INT and the ball landed or was touched in fair territory, R3 out on INT, BR out on IFF, runners return.

[AZump78]

Ok, one final wrinkle. I am going to direct this one at UmpTTS43 since he seems pretty experienced.

UmpTTS you are the crew chief and working first base on a weekend series. This situation occurs but the ball lands in fair territory on what would have been a textbook IFF. Your young but promising plate umpire call "Interference!" on R3 before anyone calls IFF. He says "Interference, thats interference!" but never the word "TIME". Your 3rd base guy then calls IFF, and is then echoed by your PU. Once ball hits ground, PU calls time, points at and declares R3 out, and then points at and declares the BR out on IFF. Offensive coach comes out steaming since he now has two outs in what looked to be a very promising situation (bases loaded, no outs). He "WTF"s your PU about 8x, and after initially standing his ground, agrees to talk it over with the crew. You huddle up with you partners.

I'd love to hear you take it step by step from here...

[johnnyg08]

Ok, one final wrinkle. I am going to direct this one at UmpTTS43 since he seems pretty experienced.

UmpTTS you are the crew chief and working first base on a weekend series. This situation occurs but the ball lands in fair territory on what would have been a textbook IFF. Your young but promising plate umpire call "Interference!" on R3 before anyone calls IFF. He says "Interference, thats interference!" but never the word "TIME". Your 3rd base guy then calls IFF, and is then echoed by your PU. Once ball hits ground, PU calls time, points at and declares R3 out, and then points at and declares the BR out on IFF. Offensive coach comes out steaming since he now has two outs in what looked to be a very promising situation (bases loaded, no outs). He "WTF"s your PU about 8x, and after initially standing his ground, agrees to talk it over with the crew. You huddle up with you partners.

I'd love to hear you take it step by step from here...

Note to anybody serious about umpiring....learn from the next few posts to follow this one. Note: none of them will be from me since I'll be learning too.

[dddunn3d]

is it different in FED?

Yes it is. See NFHS 7-4-1f.

I am not going to open that can of worms but it is discussed in the ABUA link above posted by basejester.

Nope, this is incorrect. 7-4-1f says: "A batter is also out as in above penalty or when: any member of the offensive team or coach other than the runner(s) interferes with a fielder who is attempting to field a foul fly ball;"

Notice it specifically excludes runners.

[yawetag]

Fed for verbal interference is in 2-21-1: Offensive interference is an act (physical or verbal) by the team at bat

Edit: Disregard this. I've apparently crossed threads.

[jjskitours]

FED is the same. Runner on 3rd is out and batter returns to bat. See Case Book 8.4.2 Situation B

[AZump78]

is it different in FED?

Yes it is. See NFHS 7-4-1f.

I am not going to open that can of worms but it is discussed in the ABUA link above posted by basejester.

Nope, this is incorrect. 7-4-1f says: "A batter is also out as in above penalty or when: any member of the offensive team or coach other than the runner(s) interferes with a fielder who is attempting to field a foul fly ball;"

Notice it specifically excludes runners.

Noted-Thanks for correcting. J/R quoted the NFHS rule using the term "offensive personnel" and did not exclude runners.

This is why I steer clear on FED discussion!

[Haid D' Salaami]

Think back to the play in LA... they kept the ball alive as you should, and I dont have my PBUC book, but i believe in a play like this, the ball should be keep live..cause if it lands fair or fould ( just like in LA) you have different awards.

That is a very good point about keeping the ball live as long as possible b/c of the different awards.

I see HDS's point, he's a sharp guy, but its not backed up by a rule, approved ruling, or interpretation, making it incorrect. If there was a protest-you would lose!

And since we are talking about OBR and NCAA rules in this situation, you might even get fired!!!

Unlike a MLB crew at a Dodger game, we amateur umpires aren't allowed (nor are we qualified) to create interps on the fly.

If someone can provide something in print supporting the use of a delayed dead ball for certain runner interference situations, I'll gladly stand corrected.

Like i said, Im pretty sure in the PBUC manual there is an intrep... but since Im on vaction I cant look...lOL

[johnnyg08]

I will check my PBUC manual in the morning. Unless it changed in the last year, my previous year's manual will suffice.

[UmpTTS43]

Ok, one final wrinkle. I am going to direct this one at UmpTTS43 since he seems pretty experienced.

UmpTTS you are the crew chief and working first base on a weekend series. This situation occurs but the ball lands in fair territory on what would have been a textbook IFF. Your young but promising plate umpire call "Interference!" on R3 before anyone calls IFF. He says "Interference, thats interference!" but never the word "TIME". Your 3rd base guy then calls IFF, and is then echoed by your PU. Once ball hits ground, PU calls time, points at and declares R3 out, and then points at and declares the BR out on IFF. Offensive coach comes out steaming since he now has two outs in what looked to be a very promising situation (bases loaded, no outs). He "WTF"s your PU about 8x, and after initially standing his ground, agrees to talk it over with the crew. You huddle up with you partners.

I'd love to hear you take it step by step from here...

Interesting scenario. But not entirely unlikely.

1st - since I am observing this from A position, as soon as coaches start coming out I know we have a situation. As CC I may, more than likely, bring the crew together to find out our situation immediately after the coach questions the sitch. The order of events and calls will even have me asking questions. I will need to hear what each guy has, put that with what I observed on the play and go from there.

Since R3 committed INT on F5 with an IFF sitch, both the INT and the IFF call belong to the PU (IFF if fair).

That being said, I'm going to ask the PU when the INT occurred. ln his opinion, did it occur prior to the IFF being established? I would have a good look at it also so I could chime in. I will also get U2s thoughts.

What we will determine is if the criteria for the IFF was met prior to the INT. If it was then we will get both outs under FED and possibly NCAA. If it wasn't then we will get the out on R3 and place BR at 1st moving other runners up. Under OBR, since the INT call came first, the IFF did not come into play. Either way, I will explain the ruling to both coaches and let the chips fall where they may.

There will be a thorough post game covering rules and responsibilities for plays such as these.

[UmpTTS43]

I will check my PBUC manual in the morning. Unless it changed in the last year, my previous year's manual will suffice.

OBR. When R3 interferes with F5s attempt at a play you have to wait until you know the final status of the ball in order to make the correct ruling.

[noumpere]

 

The ball is immediately dead on the INT. R3 out. Since ball was contacted in foul territory it is considered "foul". Batter returns to bat.

What's the reference for the ball is immediately dead. As some know I am away from my books and can't place that statement in my minds eye.

 

7.09 - Penalty

Okay that says "the ball is dead" but it doesn't say when the ball is dead.  and in 7-09h for example (coach assists runner) the ball doesnt become dead until the play is over.

 

So I do agree with the ruling but I dont think its wrong to say that we wait until we know whether the infield fly rule will be enforced before declaring the ball dead.

 

And from a game management standpoint we can always go back and say the ball was dead but if we declare it dead when we shouldn't have its a lot harder to clean up the mess.

[basejester]

I find the timing of when the IFF is declared to be an unsatisfying determining factor.  If we can determine fair/foul after the interference (and I think we should), why can't we determine IFF after the interference?  The rules don't really define a point in time when an IFF is established; it's when the umpire can determine it.  Therefore, which event comes first is arbitrary.

   
 

[basejester]

An emphatic declaration of "TIME!" might discourage the fielders from making a play on the ball, which can affect the final determination of fair/foul.  (That doesn't make it the wrong call.  It just creates an odd situation.)

[johnnyg08]

An emphatic declaration of "TIME!" might discourage the fielders from making a play on the ball, which can affect the final determination of fair/foul.  (That doesn't make it the wrong call.  It just creates an odd situation.)

 

 

Okay, but it is not our job to do the job of the defense or offense.  Our job is to use proper mechanics.  If they quit playing when I call time, that's their problem.  Assuming that is the proper mechanic.  

[jjskitours]

Since it is to the advantage of the defense to have the ball ruled fair, a likely scenario is for the ball to hit foul and bounce fair. If F5 chooses to stop in his tracks when he hears "Time" called and thereby fails to make any contact with the batted ball, the DT surely will not argue. I'm in the camp of calling "Time" at the point when R3 commits interference.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Guys this is an Intrep from the MLB manual and the PBUC manual.. this is not a immediate dead ball.. you have to wait to determine the status of the ball...  know what the rules say, but there is an intrep.

[jjskitours]

What No. in the MLBUM & what year book? I don't have the PBUC manual, but should I come across one, where specifically will I find this interpretation. Thanks.