Urban Myth

[mbrown2097]

Hey guys,

I am in a debate with a colleague and would like you all to weigh in. I'm not sure how to prove that a rule doesn't exist other than to show what does exists and then get some reputable umpires to weigh in as well.

Right handed pitcher with runner on 1st.

My pitcher attempts to pick off r1 without stepping off of the rubber 1st.

Other coach, "That's a balk. He has to step off of the rubber to pick first."

Me "Why, rules says he has to step toward the base that he's throwing to, does not say he has to step off 1st."

Other coach "He has to turn his shoulder to throw to 1st, that's a balk."

Me "He can turn his shoulder so long as he throws, if he doesn't it's a balk for faking to 1st."

Please be professional in your responses as I plan on sending him in this direction to review.

Thanks,

Mike

[renegadewolf]

The best way to prove that a rule doesn't exist is to read the rule book. Never ask a coach why, it's makes you look like you don't know the rules. When a coach makes an obviously incorrect statement about something either ignore it or correct them, no need to be rude about it, just be matter of factly. Coach "that was a balk" Me "No it wasn't coach he stepped to the base" "coach "blah blah blah" Me "that is enough coach, I've already explained it's not a balk, we are done here" so on and so forth.

While you are directing him to places http://mlb.mlb.com/m...eball_Rules.pdf would be a good idea too. It's the rules of baseball and he would do well to learn them

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(b ) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to

complete the throw;

© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before

throwing to that base;

Rule 8.05© Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly

toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without

actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk

.

[johnnyg08]

I would stop arguing with the other coach. He is wrong. Remember, if it is not in the rule book as illegal, then it is legal.

[basejester]

I think you covered it. An argument for why this is illegal would have to start with something in rule 8. It would be his job to produce such a rule in support of his argument, but there is no such rule.

[Rich Ives]

Also, he need not disengage.

Read 8.01 a and b in OBR - it clealy says the pitcher may throw to a base from an in contact pitching position.

In FED he may throw to a base from set but not from windup. See 6-1 1,2, and 3

[UmpJM]

mbrown,

It's explicitly in the rules that he MAY:

8.01( c ) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural

pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he

steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

JM

[basejester]

Throwing to a base from the rubber is explicitly allowed.

Turning the shoulder (toward the base thrown to) as part of the throw is implicitly legal due to the absence of a prohibition.

[mstaylor]

I am late to the game but since it is a discussion, after explaining the things already discussed ask him why a LH pitcher can throw to first but according to him a RH pitcher can't. Again direct him to 8.01 and 8.05 and show you where there is a RH rule and a LH rule. Then he is in te same boat as you, trying to prove a rule that isn't there.

[mbrown2097]

_{Hey guys,}

_{Thanks for the assist. Funny thing was that a parent from the other team told me that I needed to read the rule book.}

[mstaylor]

Tell him you have, he should try it sometime. I had an umpire ask the coach, after repeated discussion with him, where his rulebook was. He said he didn't have one, the umpire said,"Obviously." I was done, had to walk away.

[mbrown2097]

_{The "myths" of baesball intrigue me. Here are some that I have seen / heard. I am sure that there are many more. What myths have you heard from coaches?}

_{1. Hands are part of the bat}

_{2. Pitch bounces and strikes batter (No base award because it bounced)}

_{3. Batted ball that hits home plate is foul}

_{4. You have to step off of the rubber to pick 1B.}

_{5. Infield fly rule only applies to balls on the infield. (as defined by dirt)}

_{6. Once a pitcher places his foot on the rubber, he can't turn it to parallel. (wind up)}

_{7. A batted ball that stops on the chalk is foul. (c'mon everybody knows that)}

_{8. Base runner that is struck by a batted ball in fair territory is always out.}

[Jocko]

D3K rule only applies on a swinging strike

Taking signs from the bench is a balk

Batted ball (not IFF) hits a runner on his base is safe

Tie goes to the runner (go ahead, Rainman)

Can't have INT/OBS without contact

[mbrown2097]

Tie goes to the runner (go ahead, Rainman)

Ahh yes, Tie goes to the runner. Good one.

[Dannytheman]

Hands are part of the Bat, I heard this year. I yelled to the coach, "Then run to Modells and buy me a bat with hands on it!"

[Dragon29]

You forgot my favorite:

The Home Plate umpire can overrule another umpire.

. . . and a runner-up:

The ball must be returned to the pitcher before an appeal can be made.

[basejester]

Persistent myth:

Overrunning first base in fair territory puts the runner in jeopardy.

[Rich Ives]

Tie goes to the runner (go ahead, Rainman)

Believe a myth long enough and it becomes the truth. Denial at work again. :wave:

[Jimurray]

Tie goes to the runner (go ahead, Rainman)

Believe a myth long enough and it becomes the truth. Denial at work again.

OBR, tie goes to runner except on tag up. They got a force and 1B to agree a few years ago but the tag up was neglected

NFHS, tie goes to defense.

NCAA, tie goes to runner at 1B, tie goes to defense on force. (I'm doing this from memory so it may be backwards but a tie at a forced base and 1B are different).

Real world, tie goes to umpire.

[Richvee]

The old 1+1 on an overthrow.

[Jocko]

Foul depends on fielder's feet

[Jocko]

1. The hands are considered part of the bat. 2. The batter-runner must turn to his right after over-running first base. 3. If the batter breaks his wrists when swinging, it's a strike. 4. If a batted ball hits the plate first it's a foul ball. 5. The batter cannot be called out for interference if he is in the batter's box. 6. The ball is dead on a foul-tip. 7. The batter may not switch batter's boxes after two strikes. 8. The batter who batted out of order is the person declared out. 9. The batter may not overrun first base when he gets a base-on-balls. 10. The batter is out if he starts for the dugout before going to first after a dropped third strike. 11. If the batter does not pull the bat out of the strike zone while in the bunting position, it's an automatic strike. 12. The batter is out if a bunted ball hits the ground and bounces back up and hits the bat while the batter is holding the bat. 13. The batter is out if his foot touches the plate. 14. The batter-runner is always out if he runs outside the running lane after a bunted ball. 15. A runner is out if he slaps hands or high-fives other players, after a homerun is hit over the fence. 16. Tie goes to the runner. 17. The runner gets the base he's going to, plus one on a ball thrown out-of-play. 18. Anytime a coach touches a runner, the runner is out. 19. Runners may never run the bases in reverse order. 20. The runner must always slide when the play is close. 21. The runner is always safe when hit by a batted ball while touching a base. 22. A runner may not steal on a foul-tip. 23. It is a force out when a runner is called out for not tagging up on a fly ball. 24. An appeal on a runner who missed a base cannot be a force out. 25. A runner is out if he runs out of the baseline to avoid a fielder who is fielding a batted ball. 26. Runners may not advance when an infield fly is called. 27. No run can score when a runner is called out for the third out for not tagging up. 28. A pitch that bounces to the plate cannot be hit. 29. The batter does not get first base if hit by a pitch after it bounces. 30. If a fielder holds a fly ball for 2 seconds it's a catch. 31. You must tag the base with your foot on a force out or appeal. 32. The ball is always immediately dead on a balk. 33. If a player's feet are in fair territory when the ball is touched, it is a fair ball. 34. The ball must always be returned to the pitcher before an appeal can be made. 35. With no runners on base, it is a ball if the pitcher starts his windup and then stops. 36. The pitcher must come to a set position before a pick-off throw. 37. The pitcher must step off the rubber before a pick-off throw. 38. If a fielder catches a fly ball and then falls over the fence it is a homerun. 39. The ball is dead anytime an umpire is hit by the ball. 40. The home plate umpire can overrule the other umps at anytime.

[noumpere]

Trouts list might be the list of 40 that I was created maybe 15 years ago and has been posted on various sites. The last I saw of the whole list and the explanations etc was on eteamz I think.

[mbrown2097]

Trouts list might be the list of 40 that I was created maybe 15 years ago and has been posted on various sites. The last I saw of the whole list and the explanations etc was on eteamz I think.

Cool

http://baseball-rules.com/myths.htm

[mbrown2097]

Okay guys,

Here's another link. And I'll admit to not knowing one of these. In fact, it is so engrained in baseball around here that I assumed that I must be missing something in the rulebook. I've seen this called, and even called it. So far, I don't think that it has appeared in our lists above either.

http://www.sdabu.com/mistakes_main.htm

45 degree balk!!!

On Edit:

I now know from further research that this is a rule set difference so I guess it's not a myth but just confusion.

[UmpJM]

mbrown,

The "45 degree thing" is NOT a myth and it is NOT a rule code difference. It is an accepted and correct interpretation of the "direct step" requirement in ALL codes.

It is "codified" in FED (Case Play) and NCAA (Rule text) and an accepted practical interpretation in OBR (JEA).

See: http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/39464-this-is-a-nice-compilation-of-balks-etc/page__hl__codified#entry119136

for details.

JM