balk with no batter

[BalkHawk]

playing under FED rules or OBR

R3 & R2, no out, 3 ball count, pitcher delivers ball four:

after the new runner reaches 1st, before the batter has fully entered the box or addressed the pitcher, the pitcher engages the rubber in the wind up, and furthermore commits to pitch by bringing his hands together in front of him. Then, he inexplicably breaks his hands and walks forwards off the mound. The batter remains with the bat on his shoulder, standing with one foot in or near the box and the rest of his body turned toward his 3rd base coach, never signaling for time or suggesting that he might step away from the batter's box.

I had a balk. The coach wondered aloud whether I might be pulling his leg. I assured him I had the pitcher failing to properly disengage. He assured me that the batter wasn't even in the box yet. I thought aloud that that is not really important. Again, the manager was unconvinced that I was really not playing a joke.

is there any language in any rule set that says "once the batter enters the box?"

[carolinablue]

I think I would have called time if the batter was not ready and the pitcher began his delivery. Now, that being said, I see no reason why a pitcher could not balk with the batter out of the box. I was reading about a situation such as this on another site recently and it was a very heated debate.

[renegadewolf]

A balk has nothing to do with a batter so there would be no language about having a batter in the box in regards to a balk in OBR (can't speak for FED, we don't use that ruleset up here).

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Fed rules will tell you that pitching regulations begin when a pitcher comes into intentional contact with his pitchers plate, and do not specify whether a batter is or is not in the box.

[noumpere]

While I agree that the balk rule is to protect the runners and so has nothing to do with the batter in this case I might consider applying the rule about a pitcher stopping his moption because the batter steps out. Now I recognize that the batter cant step out if he never was in there in the first place but it might be the cleaner end of the stick (or as someone else says, call time if the pitcher starts his motion when the batter isnt ready and you dont feel the need to get into the whole quick pitch discussion.)

[24sdad]

I kind of agree with noumpere. However, I am not sure I would call time based upon what was written in OP. A lot of F1's engage the rubber in the wind-up position, bringing their hands together with the batter out of the box preparing to get their sign. Typically they wait for the batter to get in the box and then go from there. I would be watching very closely, however. As long as F1 was not trying to sneak in a quick pitch I would probably not get real excited about it. It F1 began any motion committing him to pitch, I would kill it.

Now, it F1 was in the set position (batter of out box) and he began his stretch, I would kill it immediately and let F1 know he needs to slow it down a bit until the batter is set in the box.

To me this OP is a little different. F1 didn't make any movement to pitch. He could have remained on the rubber with his hands together waiting for the batter to enter the box, got his sign and pitched or he could have legally disengaged. F1 did not do anything that would cause me to call time. 99.9% of the time I would treat this sitch similar to a batter stepping out of the box and causing F1 to stop his motion...time and lets start over. HTBT on this one, but my first thought was balk.

[Jocko]

Reset as long as F1 appeared to stop because batter wasn't ready. A whole lot of HTBT. More often than not I believe this isn't a balk. Depends on age and skill level. 11u AA, no way. 16u majors, maybe.

[24sdad]

Reset as long as F1 appeared to stop because batter wasn't ready. A whole lot of HTBT. More often than not I believe this isn't a balk. Depends on age and skill level. 11u AA, no way. 16u majors, maybe.

I can live with that

[BalkHawk]

the thought crossed my mind,

being that I was likely the only person in the park who had any inkling that a balk was even a possibility (PU wasn't even sure until a few innings later), I could have used my judgement to decide that a baserunner with no lead off can hardly be deceived by a pitcher who never looks their way, and that even though the batter did not move, the pitcher could have been judged to have been reacting to his taking signals. (edit: if you don't like to make tough calls)

[gejoe00]

Seeing as the batter was not ready and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber and ready to go, I would have extended my right arm up and out indicating "TIME OUT" and waited until the batter stepped into the box to begin his stance and then signaled "PLAY".

[MidAmUmp]

Seeing as the batter was not ready and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber and ready to go, I would have extended my right arm up and out indicating "TIME OUT" and waited until the batter stepped into the box to begin his stance and then signaled "PLAY".

If the pitcher brings his hands together without a batter in the box (or in the box and not ready), call time and tell him to let the batter get set. So no balk.

Also, call time with 2 hands, not 1.

[grayhawk]

Seeing as the batter was not ready and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber and ready to go, I would have extended my right arm up and out indicating "TIME OUT" and waited until the batter stepped into the box to begin his stance and then signaled "PLAY".

If the pitcher brings his hands together without a batter in the box (or in the box and not ready), call time and tell him to let the batter get set. So no balk.

Also, call time with 2 hands, not 1.

MidAmUmp, what would you do if you were not able to call time before F1 started his motion and then stopped (with runner(s) on base)? Not when a batter leaves the box, but when he is already legally out of it? Just tell him to wait for the batter to be ready, or balk him? Granted, we should catch this before it happens, but nobody is perfect. Just curious to know what you would suggest if F1, by rule, balked in this situation.

[Jocko]

I

Seeing as the batter was not ready and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber and ready to go, I would have extended my right arm up and out indicating "TIME OUT" and waited until the batter stepped into the box to begin his stance and then signaled "PLAY".

If the pitcher brings his hands together without a batter in the box (or in the box and not ready), call time and tell him to let the batter get set. So no balk.

Also, call time with 2 hands, not 1.

MidAmUmp, what would you do if you were not able to call time before F1 started his motion and then stopped (with runner(s) on base)? Not when a batter leaves the box, but when he is already legally out of it? Just tell him to wait for the batter to be ready, or balk him? Granted, we should catch this before it happens, but nobody is perfect. Just curious to know what you would suggest if F1, by rule, balked in this situation.

I believe in this scenario, you walk out of your position, calling tiime with both hands. Leaving indicates there's no way you're calling anything if he pitches. If F1 stops because the batter isn't ready I'm not calling anything.

[Jocko]

playing under FED rules

commits to pitch by bringing his hands together in front of him.

This in and of itself doesn't commit him to pitch

Fed 6-1-2 "A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body...... With his feet in the windup position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first."

Fed 6-1-3 (Set position, after the stretch, once he comes set) "During these preliiminary motions and in the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate"

[RichMSN]

If he brings both hands together simultaneously in NFHS baseball, it's considered time of the pitch and he must continue to pitch.

I'll look for a case play later.

[Jocko]

If he brings both hands together simultaneously in NFHS baseball, it's considered time of the pitch and he must continue to pitch.

I'll look for a case play later.

I quoted the rule straight from the book.

[MidAmUmp]

Seeing as the batter was not ready and the pitcher was in contact with the rubber and ready to go, I would have extended my right arm up and out indicating "TIME OUT" and waited until the batter stepped into the box to begin his stance and then signaled "PLAY".

If the pitcher brings his hands together without a batter in the box (or in the box and not ready), call time and tell him to let the batter get set. So no balk.

Also, call time with 2 hands, not 1.

MidAmUmp, what would you do if you were not able to call time before F1 started his motion and then stopped (with runner(s) on base)? Not when a batter leaves the box, but when he is already legally out of it? Just tell him to wait for the batter to be ready, or balk him? Granted, we should catch this before it happens, but nobody is perfect. Just curious to know what you would suggest if F1, by rule, balked in this situation.

I can't imagine this scenario happening, but if it were to happen, do everything in your power to stop play. I wouldn't let it get past him starting his motion. If I see him start his motion without a batter in the box, I'm just going to shut it down. Step out from behind the plate yelling "Time!" My guess would be if the plate umpire is so inept that he is not paying attention to the pitcher and allows him to begin his delivery to the plate, he probably isn't going to know what a balk is in the first place.

We teach to have your eyes on the pitcher once he toes the rubber. So if you are doing that and you see him do anything remotely close to starting his delivery/coming set and the batter is not ready (in the box or out of the box) just stop the play. There's no reason for it to go any further. Just tell him to let the batter get set.

It's good game management and preventive umpiring to shut it down. However, if the batter/offense is dicking around, I'm not going to be very accommodating.

Here are my suggestions (bearing in mind I only work college baseball and am applying NCAA rules - but you can use them as game management skills at other levels)...

1. Keep the game moving. Get the batter in the box. If it's in between pitches tell the batter to keep a foot in the box.

2. Put up your right hand. It simply means "Don't pitch". He can still do anything else (pickoff) but he cannot pitch. I use this when the batter is taking a little longer getting a sign or needs a second to get his feet set. I'll point at the pitcher when he can pitch.

3. Keep you eye on the pitcher when he's in contact and do not let him make any movement in attempt to pitch (start to come set, bringing his hands together, starting his windup, etc.) if the batter has not had adequate time to get set in the box.

4. If the batter has had adequate time, it's on him.

[noumpere]

If he brings both hands together simultaneously in NFHS baseball, it's considered time of the pitch and he must continue to pitch.

I'll look for a case play later.

I quoted the rule straight from the book.

Maybe but Rich has the right interp on it in FED. If both hands are at the side and both move at the same time thats the start of the pitch. I think thats how I and probably Rich interpreted the statement we're now discussing.

If one moves to in front and stops, then the pitcher can move the other to join. Or he can take the rubber with both together. Or he can take the rubber with one in front and then move the other to join.

[Jocko]

If he brings both hands together simultaneously in NFHS baseball, it's considered time of the pitch and he must continue to pitch.

I'll look for a case play later.

I quoted the rule straight from the book.

Maybe but Rich has the right interp on it in FED. If both hands are at the side and both move at the same time thats the start of the pitch. I think thats how I and probably Rich interpreted the statement we're now discussing.

If one moves to in front and stops, then the pitcher can move the other to join. Or he can take the rubber with both together. Or he can take the rubber with one in front and then move the other to join.

Ok, I was seeing it as he was standing there, hands together getting the signs. That seems more like the OP.

[noumpere]

The quote from the OP is "the pitcher engages the rubber in the wind up, and furthermore commits to pitch by bringing his hands together in front of him" not "the pitcher engages the rubber in the windup with his hands together" but as long as were all on the same page now.

[Steven Tyler]

Do over. No balk.

[jjskitours]

Put up your right hand. It simply means "Don't pitch". He can still do anything else (pickoff) but he cannot pitch. I use this when the batter is taking a little longer getting a sign or needs a second to get his feet set. I'll point at the pitcher when he can pitch.

I was always taught that when the one hand was up for the "Don't Pitch" that TIME is out and no action such as a pickoff can occur. From what school of teaching or book does your mechanic come?

I actually hope you have some authoritative source because I would prefer that this be the case.

[noumpere]

Put up your right hand. It simply means "Don't pitch". He can still do anything else (pickoff) but he cannot pitch. I use this when the batter is taking a little longer getting a sign or needs a second to get his feet set. I'll point at the pitcher when he can pitch.

I was always taught that when the one hand was up for the "Don't Pitch" that TIME is out and no action such as a pickoff can occur. From what school of teaching or book does your mechanic come?

I actually hope you have some authoritative source because I would prefer that this be the case.

Good point and I missed that in MidAms post. You are right it means that time is out and nothing else can happen.

[MidAmUmp]

Put up your right hand. It simply means "Don't pitch". He can still do anything else (pickoff) but he cannot pitch. I use this when the batter is taking a little longer getting a sign or needs a second to get his feet set. I'll point at the pitcher when he can pitch.

I was always taught that when the one hand was up for the "Don't Pitch" that TIME is out and no action such as a pickoff can occur. From what school of teaching or book does your mechanic come?

I actually hope you have some authoritative source because I would prefer that this be the case.

I prefaced my response by saying, "bearing in mind I only work college baseball and am applying NCAA rules - but you can use them as game management skills at other levels..."

It is an NCAA mechanic.

[MidAmUmp]

Okay...let me edit what I've posted...

I just looked in the CCA manual and apparently the NCAA has changed this mechanic and didn't let anyone know. I would assume they did this when we started paying specific attention to pace of play. The mechanic in the book now indicates "do not pitch; the ball is dead". So I stand corrected. Back in the "olden days" it used to mean you can do anything but pitch, allowing the batter to get set in the box, but not denying the pitcher an opportunity to attempt a pick off on a base runner.