Going for Help

[mstaylor]

I am an old school umpire that tries to stay abreast of current mechanics. I realize there is a trend to get the call right and to get together to discuss problem plays. I'm OK with the theory and with three or more umpires it can even work. The problem is we work and teach mostly two man. As Pete noted in the mistakes thread, when you are in A you have the runner and the catch is the PU's. If something weird happens on the catch, there is no need to get together, the BU has nothing to add. This the old school in me speaking,"Make the call, keep it and handle the heat."

I can't remember if I have posted this story but I was working a men's game and had a catch right in front of the LF fence about 15' from foul. The F7 catches the ball going away, muffs it and regains control. My partner takes the BR to second and I call the catch. The coach goes nuts saying it went off the fence on the muff. I didn't have that and explained that. I also explained that if it had gone off the fence he would be correct but I didn't have that so the BR is out. He wanted me to ask my BU and I told him he would have nothing because he isn't looking at it. I explained there was no reason to ask, I wouldn't ask, it was my call and I was keeping it. This a prime example of when not to conference.

To make matters worse, after the game my partner said I should have come to him. He said he had something to give me and it would take the heat off me. He felt that if I had a conference the manager would back off. I told him he shouldn't have anything for me if he is doing his job. I also said I would never go for help just because it would take heat off of me. I am already under the bus, why should I drag my partner under with me.

If you have a check swing, a pulled foot or a swipe tag that ask. If you have a fair/foul, catch/no catch or a hit batter in the box then don't ask. I have seen coaches ask if I would ask my BU if a ball hit the batter in the box. I explain if it had happened then he would have killed the play. If he hasn't killed it then there is no need ask, it didn't happen. If the ball hits the BR or bat in fair he would also kill it. If he didn't then it didn't happen, no need to ask.

The biggest reason to get together is to fix a rule problem. I will never argue with getting this type of call right. I think this is what started the trend but it has become bastardized into asking about everything.

[Majordave]

Michael:

Amen brother!

Too much asking for help these days.

Rules interpretations, where to place runners after obstruction/interference are the exceptions.

[jim knight]

I have a slightly different take on it... All umpires (in my opinion) should keep eyes on the ball, glance at the runners. It is better to get the call right in all situations.

[PeteBooth]

Michael Excellant OP and IMO we have our bretheran MLB to thank as well as the NCAA.

If memory serves Dave Yeast the former head of the NCAA officials made "getting the call right at all costs" a major project during his reign.

The problem as you correctly put it is:

There are only 2 of us and many a time as you say your partner can't help you and to make matters worse if he could help you then he was not doing his job.

Let's take your OP and add a little twist. In some HS fields that I have umpired on there are those dreaded snow fences and let's say it is one of those which either went under (or through) or completely over the fence. You as PU rule a book rule double.

OM requests time and asks you to check with your partner. You say "ok skip" and you check with your partner. Your partner says I had a clear view and your call was correct. Now we both met discussed the play and everything is ok right.

WRONG

The DM now requests time and wants to make a Dead ball appeal (assume FED rules) that the BR missed first base (which he CLEARLY did)

One HUGE problem - No one was watching the runner(s). If the original catch / no catch belongs to the PU which it did and the BU takes it upon himself to also watch the ball, guess what No -one is watching the runners. There could have been OBS etc.

So there's a case whereby you "skated" on the HR vs. book rule double but then created another problem.

Umpires in a 2 person system must learn to stick with THEIR calls on certain occassions. Yes we are going to "kick some" but it happens. I agree with your premise the pulled foot swipe tag if done right away is ok.

One other item I would like to address as an addendum to your OP.

In the OP about mechanics Timing was stressed and for a very good reason. Sometimes we simply DO NOT KNOW what the call is and have to GUESS. It happens especially given the scenario I mentioned above.

What to do?

Do not panic but take a quick glance at the "evidence" as sometimes the players "give away" the call.

Let's take the HBP. You do not actually KNOW if B1 was HBP or not but you notice the player in OBVIOUS pain, you simply call TIME award first on a pitched ball and FOUL if the batter swung at the pitch and made contact and the ball is being fielded by F2 for an easy put out.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

I have a slightly different take on it... All umpires (in my opinion) should keep eyes on the ball, glance at the runners. It is better to get the call right in all situations.

I do not agree with the aforementioned.

Generally speaking in a 2 person system One umpire has the ball and one umpire has the runner and for very good reason.

One umpire has to watch "the action" around the base-paths. We could have OBS / Interference / Malicious Contact. If you simply glance (when it's not your responsibility to glance) the umpiring crew can miss something blatant.

Now there are times when it's ok to glance like when you are in "B" / "C" and take a quick glance over your shoulder to see if the runner is stealing etc. but generally speaking as mentioned one umpire has the ball and one has the runners.

Also the FACT remains - We will NOT get every call right. It's called being human.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

I have a slightly different take on it... All umpires (in my opinion) should keep eyes on the ball, glance at the runners. It is better to get the call right in all situations.

Actually on a ball to the outfield and you are in A, the mechanic is watch the runner, glance at the ball. You have the runner and need to glance at the ball to know whether the runner to going to stop at first or try for second. Two man is a series of compromises and the OP is an example. Sometimes you make the call the best you can and realze your partner just doesn't have any help for you.

[jim knight]

I am pretty sure we are saying about the same thing... there will be times like a ball hit to the wall when Base Umpire will stay with the ball a little longer in case of a trouble play... Timing of when the runner is around the bases or defensive players are the times I glance and sometimes stay with the runner as a base umpire. I always go back to the ball... The origional post had more to do with going for help, right? The general rule I use is... go for help if you need it / know your partner and always cover this in a pre-game disscusion... have fun work hard / good timing and good communication will always help.

[mstaylor]

I am pretty sure we are saying about the same thing... there will be times like a ball hit to the wall when Base Umpire will stay with the ball a little longer in case of a trouble play... Timing of when the runner is around the bases or defensive players are the times I glance and sometimes stay with the runner as a base umpire. I always go back to the ball... The origional post had more to do with going for help, right? The general rule I use is... go for help if you need it / know your partner and always cover this in a pre-game disscusion... have fun work hard / good timing and good communication will always help.

For the most part we are saying about the same thing but the are a fundemental difference. I ascribe to the older belief that you cover your area and your partner covers his. In my case of the ball hit to left w/no runners there is no need for the two to get together. Now if the BU is in the middle there could be more overlap in the ability to peak at the other guy's area.

You on the other hand seem to ascribe to peak more to be able to help if asked.

The more probable overlap with the BU in the middle is fine for a diving or shoestring catch but even then I try to keep my own calls. What Pete and I are advocating is the less you get together the less they will ask.

Just for my edification, what is your age or length of time umpiring. I'm curious if it is an old school/new school difference or a dinosaur being hardheaded. :HS

[jim knight]

56 years old umpire since 1978 /

[mstaylor]

I'm 5o but started in 75. So does that make you the jr because I started before you or me the jr beause you're older. :HD:

[Umpire in Chief]

I was taught that from the "A" position a ball hit to the outfield to you watch the ball pivot or glance at the runner continue to watch the ball and let it lead you to any potential play. The umpire who has the ball in their area of responsibility has the call. The other umpire is an extra set of eyes. Same from "B" or "C" except no pivot.

This really paid off for me when in the Showcase game we had a ball hit in shallow left. F5, F6 & F7 were all converging on the ball. F5 ended up making the catch on a terrific play running and diving backwards while colliding with F7. Because of the way F5 caught the ball my partner (PU) couldn't see the catch but I had a much better angle. My partner made no call and the runner held at first. My partner called time and signaled me over. I told him what I had and he told me he he was blocked out. My partner used my info and called the batter out. While the batter wasn't happy, the 3rd base coach complimented us on getting the call right.

[jim knight]

Well put, Warren... good example of a time to get help / if I was your partner it would be nice to know that you were watching the ball... not the runner.

[MCLEOD36]

I try to keep it simple. If I need help, I will get it and look for partner to add value. We do have to rely on each other to cover their spots, but on the bases good vision can help out with catches and perifery vision on touches. Going from 60 foot bases (small ball) to 90 foot also has some quirks, but if you went for help on everything, we all would be sunk.

[POLOGREEN]

Just read about a change for 2009 that states that with a runner on 2B only in the 2 umpipre system, the responsibility for all calls on the bases falls to the base umpire.

For example, with a R1 on 2B and no outs, the batter hits a ground ball to the ss. The ss throws the ball to 1st for the first out. As F6 releases the throw, R1 breaks for third. F3 then throws across the diamond in an attempt to retire R1 at third base. As before, the base umpire has primary responsibility for the call at first base. As part of the change, the plate umpire will trail the batter -runner and watch for interference or a pulled foot or swipe tag situation.

Just as on a normal DP, the base umpire will make the call on the batter - runner while moving into position for the next play. The BU will get one or two steps closer to third, then must stop and see the attempted play on R1.

Reference is 2009 NFHS Preseason Guide.

[Stan W.]

I'm 5o but started in 75. So does that make you the jr because I started before you or me the jr beause you're older.

Its "time in grade" in my book MST!...you're senior....!(I'm 49 started in '81)

Edited December 9, 2008 by Stan W.
spelling what else?....

[LMSANS]

Its "time in grade" in my book MST!...your senior....!(I'm 49 started in '81)

I'm the kid in the group - 51, started umpiring in '73.

Oh yeah I took 30 years off and got back in 2004.

[jim knight]

I'm 5o but started in 75. So does that make you the jr because I started before you or me the jr beause you're older.

If I am 56 and started in '78 I got you beat in almost anyway you look at it... right?

[Bigdog]

Just read about a change for 2009 that states that with a runner on 2B only in the 2 umpipre system, the responsibility for all calls on the bases falls to the base umpire.

For example, with a R1 on 2B and no outs, the batter hits a ground ball to the ss. The ss throws the ball to 1st for the first out. As F6 releases the throw, R1 breaks for third. F3 then throws across the diamond in an attempt to retire R1 at third base. As before, the base umpire has primary responsibility for the call at first base. As part of the change, the plate umpire will trail the batter -runner and watch for interference or a pulled foot or swipe tag situation.

Just as on a normal DP, the base umpire will make the call on the batter - runner while moving into position for the next play. The BU will get one or two steps closer to third, then must stop and see the attempted play on R1.

Reference is 2009 NFHS Preseason Guide.

Hey all,

This is the way I have always run this mechanic with everyone I have worked with from LL to adult league. It always made more sense for the umpire that is significantly closer to the play, with probably a better angle too, makes this call. More of a common sense vs. book smart mechanic.

Bigdog:cool:

Edited December 9, 2008 by Bigdog

[mstaylor]

BigDog:

I agree, I have always worked this play the same way. I actually saw a guy work this mechanic with R1, R2. He called both ends of the double play, then bounced back and called the runner that fell rounding third. Classic mechanic to end a game.

JM

The last I looked '75 is before '78. You're older but I started three years earlier. :givebeer:

Edited December 10, 2008 by mstaylor
Posted before proofing

[catoblue]

I'm the kid in the group - 51, started umpiring in '73.

Oh yeah I took 30 years off and got back in 2004.

And I'm the baby in the group - only 43, started in '82 , had about 8 years off in there someplace and been at it regularly since maybe '93.

[POLOGREEN]

I started in 72' took 29 years off and I am 61 now.

[Bigdog]

Hey all,

OK, I know that I am on the "other" coast, but I got you all (y'all for those of you in the South! ) beat! I am only 40 years old and started "way back" in 2004! GOTCHA!!

Bigdog:cool:

[mstaylor]

Hey all,

OK, I know that I am on the "other" coast, but I got you all (y'all for those of you in the South! ) beat! I am only 40 years old and started "way back" in 2004! GOTCHA!!

Bigdog:cool:

Damn kids! :shrug:

[Hemibee]

Damn kids!

Only 40? ............ Is it legal for the kid to buy beer?

I'm only 49 (for a few more months) umpired my first game in '73 and then took a few years off starting in '79 to return in '08.

[Bigdog]

Hey all,

I never even thought about being an umpire until I was asked to umpire one of my son's LL games because there was no umpire. I wish it was sooner, but alas, it was not. All I can do is to ask for forgiveness from "The Elders":cheers: (Not to be meant as )

Bigdog:cool:

BTW, why am I having thoughts of the More Taste League running through my head???:givebeer: