Balk explanation?

[th3]

So if the pthcher is in the set - and by that i mean when he has engaged the rubber and had his hand hanging down with the ball in it and is looking in at the catcher. If he, at that point, switched the ball into his glove and then puts his hand back down, thats a balk, right? can someone cite the fed rule?

[UmpJM]

6-2-4e.

JM

[soapbox]

^{But now, if the pitcher is taking his position in the pre-set with ball in glove and transfers to hand to hang by side or put behind his back am I balking that under} Fed^?

[noumpere]

^{But now, if the pitcher is taking his position in the pre-set with ball in glove and transfers to hand to hang by side or put behind his back am I balking that under} Fed^?

Depends on when he does this. If its generally all one motion has he takes the rubber and looks in then let it go. But if theres any appreciable delay the balk it. The line between the two is part of the art of umpiring.

[Jimurray]

^{But now, if the pitcher is taking his position in the pre-set with ball in glove and transfers to hand to hang by side or put behind his back am I balking that under} Fed^?

Depends on when he does this. If its generally all one motion has he takes the rubber and looks in then let it go. But if theres any appreciable delay the balk it. The line between the two is part of the art of umpiring.

In OBR momentary adjustment is allowed in the windup or set.

[th3]

this is 6.2.4e:

e. taking a hand off the ball while in a set position (6-1-3), unless he pitches to the batter or throws to a base or he steps toward and feints a throw to ­second or third base as in ( B); or

thats not what im talking about right? this refers to when he has come set with the ball in the glove (right?) i'm talking about pre-set,,,,what rule does he violate by taking his hanging empty and and taking the ball out of the glove and letting the hand hang again? i just want to know what rule to use to explain it...

(i dont know how that stupid emoticon thing got there..it said as in 6.1.3 i think)

[UmpJM]

th3,

6-2-4e is the rule. It constrains any pitcher who has engaged the rubber in the set (as opposed to windup) position, whether or not he has yet brought his hands together in front of his body and come to a complete stop (i.e., "come set").

Once he has "settled" on the rubber, he is liable. As others have noted above, if he switches the ball from one hand to another AS he is settling, I've got nothing. If he does it AFTER he has settled, it's a balk.

JM

[MPLSMatt]

By bringing his hands together, he has taken the set position (6.1.3). Even though he doesn't know it, when he brings his hands together to take the ball, he is entering the set position (or at least simulating it). Once the hands come apart he needs to come to home or a base. (6.2.4e)

The casebook lays it out clearly:

6.1.3 SITUATION D

With R1 on first, F1, in a set-position stance with the ball in his gloved hand and his pitching hand at his side, takes his sign. He removes the ball from his glove and goes to a set position.

RULING: This is a balk.

[umpire_scott]

this is 6.2.4e:

e. taking a hand off the ball while in a set position (6-1-3), unless he pitches to the batter or throws to a base or he steps toward and feints a throw to ­second or third base as in ( B); or

thats not what im talking about right? this refers to when he has come set with the ball in the glove (right?) i'm talking about pre-set,,,,what rule does he violate by taking his hanging empty and and taking the ball out of the glove and letting the hand hang again? i just want to know what rule to use to explain it...

(i dont know how that stupid emoticon thing got there..it said as in 6.1.3 i think)

He has brought his hands together to do this so he has simulated a motion that he typically does while pitching, then stopped his delivery. 7-4-d.

[umpcoachfather]

in fed hanging his arm down with the ball in his hand is known as "gorilla arm" thats a balk.

[soapbox]

But, if he is doing this as a normal practice is he settles in a pre-set, is it really a balk? The idea of a balk is to deceive a runner. Example: From the set, F1 places his pivot foot on the rubber, now extends forward his front leg, while taking his arm around his back with ball in hand. I've got moving parts, then a stop. But just to walk on to the rubber, have ball in glove and grab out of his glove as he opens his forward leg, this becomes a balk? So under fed rules, I should balk this every time? And just for clarification, I'm saying that F1 always has ball in hand prior to bringing his hands together. There is no deception. Under fed rules, I should also balk every time F1 has glove above chin. This has been a tough balk week for me and I want to know what you all do. Lastly, what would you consider a descernible stop. Is a fraction enough before coming home or would you balk. As long as he stops, no matter how short a period, can I let go. I know its a htbt, but picture a very short stop, but nonetheless a stop. Thanks for all the input on this because with soaring temperatures, my last 20 days have been the least enjoyable in a game I've been doing and love.

[UmpJM]

in fed hanging his arm down with the ball in his hand is known as "gorilla arm" thats a balk.

It used to be, but it's not anymore - as long as he's not "swinging" the hanging arm.

JM

[th3]

in fed hanging his arm down with the ball in his hand is known as "gorilla arm" thats a balk.

only if its swinging (w or w/out the ball) but thank you

[UmpJM]

But, if he is doing this as a normal practice is he settles in a pre-set, is it really a balk? The idea of a balk is to deceive a runner. Example: From the set, F1 places his pivot foot on the rubber, now extends forward his front leg, while taking his arm around his back with ball in hand. I've got moving parts, then a stop. But just to walk on to the rubber, have ball in glove and grab out of his glove as he opens his forward leg, this becomes a balk? So under fed rules, I should balk this every time? And just for clarification, I'm saying that F1 always has ball in hand prior to bringing his hands together. There is no deception. Under fed rules, I should also balk every time F1 has glove above chin. This has been a tough balk week for me and I want to know what you all do. Lastly, what would you consider a descernible stop. Is a fraction enough before coming home or would you balk. As long as he stops, no matter how short a period, can I let go. I know its a htbt, but picture a very short stop, but nonetheless a stop. Thanks for all the input on this because with soaring temperatures, my last 20 days have been the least enjoyable in a game I've been doing and love.

soapbox,

Whether a pitcher does something every time or not is not relevant to the question of whether or not he has balked. Also, the balk rules only prevent the pitcher from illegaly deceiving the runner, and the pitcher's "intent to deceive" rarely enters into the decision to call a balk.

The pitcher is allowed reasonable latitude to make minor adjustments as he engages and "settles" on the rubber. If he momentarily adjusts the ball or begins to step on with his hands together and then separates his hand or makes a small step adjusting his foot position AS he steps on the rubber, it's nothing. After he has "settled" if he does these things, it's a balk.

JM

[Jimurray]

I think you should use this guidance from PBUC even in FED:

"Prior to assuming a legal pitching position (windup or set) it is permissble for the pitcher to mometarily adjust the ball in his glove.In order for this to be allowed, the movement must be momentary in nature. If the pitcher has his hands together long enough that, in the judgement of the umpie, it appears that he has actually come to a set position or has actually assumed the wind-up position, then should the pitcher separate his hands, a balk shall be called under Official Rule 8.05j."

[Jocko]

A discrenable stop is just that there is not time limit. As long as YOU discern the stop, he hasn't balked. Don't look for it. Just call it when you see it. A fraction of a second is legal as long as YOU consider it a complete and discernable stop.

[noumpere]

^{But now, if the pitcher is taking his position in the pre-set with ball in glove and transfers to hand to hang by side or put behind his back am I balking that under} Fed^?

Depends on when he does this. If its generally all one motion has he takes the rubber and looks in then let it go. But if theres any appreciable delay the balk it. The line between the two is part of the art of umpiring.

In OBR momentary adjustment is allowed in the windup or set.

Of course, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

[MPLSMatt]

Soapbox, I've been there with balks. I promise, it gets easier. Eventually, most become second nature.

Trout has it right, eventually you figure out what is a stop for you (by rule it cannot be just a change of direction). My stop used to be really short because I thought not calling balks would avoid conflict. Eventually I realized that it is easier to make sure you have a solid, clear and discernible stop and call it from the start. After you balk a guy once for it, usually you won't have it again. However, if you let too much go you stat having coaches complain about it and then once you call it, the opposing coach thinks that the other coaches are influencing you.

That said, don't go picking buggers. If the guy changes hands or does something funky as he's taking the rubber, don't bang him just to show everyone in the park that you know the rule book.

[Jocko]

"The reason I never called a balk is because I didn't understand the rule."

- Ron Luciano, MLB Umpire

[BigSimonia]

"The reason I never called a balk is because I didn't understand the rule."

- Ron Luciano, MLB Umpire

+1

[soapbox]

I'm not trying to make the big call. I spoke with our rules interpreter and after a long conversation, he say's he won't call it, but technically a balk. He said if he gets heat in a game for not calling, he then calls it. Respect this guy a lot, but I'm not going to be bullied into balking because coach says so. I like the minor adjustment period explanation. And frankly if I balk this, I might just as well balk every time a pitcher sets up with hands above chin. I'm not so much confused as much as wanted to know what you guys do in other parts of the country. I have dealt with 3 rats over a 2 week period. Maybe it's the heat. Maybe they want to show the parents they are raping on fees to run these teams they know their crap. One coach is at the point that nobody wants his games ( I do), can't wait. Second coach pissed that me and my partner refused to balk opponent because we had a stop, though quick, and later in game I balked his kid for going straight through. Third guy, just an idiot and not worth the space as the only rule he knows is you play 9 in the field. Thanks all. Was a brutal 2 weeks. Can only get better.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Maybe it's just me,but if F1 puts his hand into his glove, and removes it, I can't call that "momentary adjustment". Momentary adjustment to me is re-positioning the ball, and/or his grip, once he has come set. If he has come set, and briefly removes his hand from the ball, without retracting it too far, I have nothing.

[JaxRolo]

I believe the Jim Evans balk DVD shows this as being a legal move

[Jocko]

Agree with Chuck and Rolando

[mstaylor]

I am going to jump on my soapbox:

Deception is a tie breaker, not a basis for balks. As noted you can legally deceive runners all game long. Performing an illegal act repeating does not legalize it, many coaches thinks it does.

Off the soapbox

To the original question. A pitcher, in any ruleset can adjust the ball in his glove or switch hands as part of initially stepping on the rubber or settling. Once settled doing so becomes a balk.