Consternation abounding

[Tyennie]

Here is a head scratcher for you. OBR (AmLg Tourny) RHP. His windup position of his feet caused great dilemma for the opposing coach. No runners on. Pivot foot is engaged parallel to the front edge of the rubber, free foot is just off the front left corner, hands together. (Yup it looks like he is about 3/4 open in a 'set' position) From this position, he takes a short (3-4 inch) rocker step back with his free foot and delivers pitch. Offensive mgr. is screaming for a 'double set' (no runners on. Huh?) His actual set position was the standard, normal, stereotypical, position. ball in rh at his side etc etc. So the question - was the placement of his feet in violation? I realize in college ball his shoulders have to be square to the plate in order to be consider in WU, but no such parameters are given for straight OBR. (unless i missed reading that somewhere) thanks

[Rich Ives]

No scratchig required - just knowing the recent rule update/clarification. Note the comment at the end,

8.01

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in

contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any

natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him

to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the

ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one

step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot

foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered

in the Windup Position.

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free†foot on

the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.

[Tyennie]

Not meaning to be a smart@@@, just need to clarify - are you in the defensive 'camp' or the offensive 'camp' on this one?

The pitcher was "facing the batter," albeit not totally 'squared' towards him. the offensive coach was very adamant that F1's feet had to be placed perpendicular to the rubber with one or both feet engaged. I told him that is not specified in the rules and i was okay with it. If however F1 went anywhere beside home with the ball, after taking this position and starting his motion, it would be a balk (with runners on of course)

[scrounge]

this sounds like nitpicking of the 5th degree on the part of the offensive coach.....

[Tyennie]

Well yeah, and he kept at it for a couple of innings when i finally told him the same thing I posted in my second post. I was the BU on this one and I asked the def. mgr to talk with me at the half inning (he was in 3b coaches box) His response - "It's about my pitchers windup isn't it?" Yup - so we discussed it and came to the same conclusion. The position is just so unorthodox that it was really messing with the other guy's head. And actually this particular 'position' is much like a LL kid who uses a bigger step to get his momentum going.

[Rich Ives]

Not meaning to be a smart@@@, just need to clarify - are you in the defensive 'camp' or the offensive 'camp' on this one?

The pitcher was "facing the batter," albeit not totally 'squared' towards him. the offensive coach was very adamant that F1's feet had to be placed perpendicular to the rubber with one or both feet engaged. I told him that is not specified in the rules and i was okay with it. If however F1 went anywhere beside home with the ball, after taking this position and starting his motion, it would be a balk (with runners on of course)

It's an OBR question. OBR doesn't require "totally squared" - or semi-squared for that matter.

Facing means looking at. Same as when it says "facing the batter" in the set position part of the rule.

If he goes anywhere but home after starting his motion it's a balk (runners on) from either position so that argument falls short too.

[Tyennie]

Not meaning to be a smart@@@, just need to clarify - are you in the defensive 'camp' or the offensive 'camp' on this one?

The pitcher was "facing the batter," albeit not totally 'squared' towards him. the offensive coach was very adamant that F1's feet had to be placed perpendicular to the rubber with one or both feet engaged. I told him that is not specified in the rules and i was okay with it. If however F1 went anywhere beside home with the ball, after taking this position and starting his motion, it would be a balk (with runners on of course)

It's an OBR question. OBR doesn't require "totally squared" - or semi-squared for that matter.

Facing means looking at. Same as when it says "facing the batter" in the set position part of the rule.

If he goes anywhere but home after starting his motion it's a balk (runners on) from either position so that argument falls short too.

isn't that what i just said? :)

[Rich Ives]

Not meaning to be a smart@@@, just need to clarify - are you in the defensive 'camp' or the offensive 'camp' on this one?

The pitcher was "facing the batter," albeit not totally 'squared' towards him. the offensive coach was very adamant that F1's feet had to be placed perpendicular to the rubber with one or both feet engaged. I told him that is not specified in the rules and i was okay with it. If however F1 went anywhere beside home with the ball, after taking this position and starting his motion, it would be a balk (with runners on of course)

It's an OBR question. OBR doesn't require "totally squared" - or semi-squared for that matter.

Facing means looking at. Same as when it says "facing the batter" in the set position part of the rule.

If he goes anywhere but home after starting his motion it's a balk (runners on) from either position so that argument falls short too.

isn't that what i just said?

Then why did you even include the squared up bit? Just wanted to clarify that it wasn't required in OBR.

[Tyennie]

Emphasis was added to that wording, only because the offensive coach was the one with the problem. As i stated in my OP, I am aware it is not 'required' in OBR. Thanks for your input.

[bam]

Did you tell the OM that he probably had better things to do than complaining about that, given there was no one on base? And if he said "no" you could have given him something.

With no runners on, what does he care? He's just trying to rattle the pitcher, is what he's doing.

[Welpe]

This came up recently in a discussion here and the consensus amongst several posters was that in OBR, the pitcher can be in the traditional "pre-set" position and throw from the wind up. If he takes a rocker step then treat it as a wind up otherwise he has to come set (with runners on of course).

Of course the offensive manager not understanding that a pitcher is not required to pause while delivering with no runners is a separate issue.

[Tyennie]

With no runners on, what does he care? He's just trying to rattle the pitcher, is what he's doing.

I don't think he was trying to rattle the pitcher. I think, he thought he had a legit gripe. Which of course he did not.

[mstaylor]

So I guess his head would blow up if he actually picked from that wind-up position, which certainly legal if he hasn't started his motion.

[Tyennie]

true, but it would be a hard sell to not call a balk. since the F1's first little rocker step was a backwards motion towards 1B.

[Jimurray]

true, but it would be a hard sell to not call a balk. since the F1's first little rocker step was a backwards motion towards 1B.

So, with R3, what would Cliff Lee's rocker step be?

[noumpere]

true, but it would be a hard sell to not call a balk. since the F1's first little rocker step was a backwards motion towards 1B.

So, with R3, what would Cliff Lee's rocker step be?

I think hes saying that the pitcher rocks back and then picks -- so thats the balk.

And plays like this is why college and HS have gone to the feet position as defining the windup or set and because coaches were teaching the confusing positioning to try to have there cake and eat it too.

The specifics are different -- in HS if the free foot is completely in front of and not touching the rubber the pitcher is in the set. In college the free foot needs to be completely closer to the plate than the pivot foot.

[Tyennie]

The kid never went to first from this 'position' but if he had i would have balked him. It would truly be helpful if the three codes could at least agree on what is correct foot position for the pitcher's feet. But then again I don't see pigs flying soon. :)

[Jimurray]

The kid never went to first from this 'position' but if he had i would have balked him. It would truly be helpful if the three codes could at least agree on what is correct foot position for the pitcher's feet. But then again I don't see pigs flying soon.

If he picked to 1B from this windup foot position, before starting his motion, with a proper step what would you balk him for? (Granted the only time you might see this from the windup would be bases loaded)

[Tyennie]

Because his first step would have to be towards first base with his free foot (left foot). Yes? The initial start of his windup is a short rocker step with his free foot in the direction of first base. As a baserunner it would be very difficult to ascertain the difference. No?

[noumpere]

Sure if you just looked at his foot but you need to look at the totalness of the motions.

[Jimurray]

Because his first step would have to be towards first base with his free foot (left foot). Yes? The initial start of his windup is a short rocker step with his free foot in the direction of first base. As a baserunner it would be very difficult to ascertain the difference. No?

So with a "normal" windup position and R2 you would balk the step back toward 2B that F1 normally takes.

[mstaylor]

The consensus on whether balk him or not is twofold. What he does with his foot when he steps, read direction he places it, and whether he starts his hands. Most guys that pick to first from the windup will turn his toe toward first. Also his hands will trail the step and his upper body will open toward first. Very easy to tell the difference, but very effective for a pick because runners are taught to break on first motion.

[Haid D' Salaami]

In NCAA it is the same.. but his free foot can't be entirely in front of his pivot foot...so in this sit, it would be ok.

Sometimes just a little talking to would be ok...

[Jimurray]

In NCAA it is the same.. but his free foot can't be entirely in front of his pivot foot...so in this sit, it would be ok.

Sometimes just a little talking to would be ok...

Are you saying you would tell Cliff Lee or JP Howell (sp uncertain) to square up?

[noumpere]

In NCAA it is the same.. but his free foot can't be entirely in front of his pivot foot...so in this sit, it would be ok.

Sometimes just a little talking to would be ok...

Are you saying you would tell Cliff Lee or JP Howell (sp uncertain) to square up?

Im not familiar with there stances but if it was wrong and they were playing in college I would correct it and rule accordingly.