You've got me thinking........

[MT_Blue]

Morning all,

This may not be the right place for this but if its not im sorry and feel free to move it, but reading through this section of the forums got me thinking about my 'career' to this point, and how many times i just let things slide....so i pose the question how much is to much, I know people have their limits, but at what point does everyone say enough is enough and then the imfamous Captain hook Ride again?

`Ken

[semper_fi_72]

Morning all,

This may not be the right place for this but if its not im sorry and feel free to move it, but reading through this section of the forums got me thinking about my 'career' to this point, and how many times i just let things slide....so i pose the question how much is to much, I know people have their limits, but at what point does everyone say enough is enough and then the imfamous Captain hook Ride again?

`Ken

I don't believe you can or should be able to determine that point.

IMHO each confrontation with a Manager/Coach/Player is different.

Keep it impersonal and you will get to say a little more.

Make it a personal attack and you get shut down and sent packing real quick.

I don't look for EJs.

I don't EJ.

They EJ themselves :D

[moblue]

Lots of things come into play when you make the decision to EJ. First off, the level of play determines what type of language can be used. As the age increases, so does the language I allow (although I'm still strict by most people's standards).

Second, are the remarks personal? The word "you" in a sentence that reflects in a negative light on me is grounds for a warning, if not an EJ.

Third, what kind of tone is being used for the remarks? There are many different tones that can be used. Negative tones lead to negative results for the coach/player.

Of course much, much more goes into it than that. I worked for several years before I had an EJ. My first one, I should have handled things differently. After using it as a learning experience, and the next one practically being handed to me (dropping an f-bomb in a 9-10 yr. old game) I was able to see what should actually constitute an EJ. Another good principle is the method for look, warn, acknowledge, eject when dealing with arguing balls and strikes. The first time you ignore. The second time you look to the dugout to acknowledge that you saw them. The third time you warn them directly. If there is a fourth time, enforce your warning with an EJ. That method has saved me all kinds of hassling from coaches, whereas used to I too would "let it slide."

[HokieUmp]

I don't believe you can or should be able to determine that point.

IMHO each confrontation with a Manager/Coach/Player is different.

Keep it impersonal and you will get to say a little more.

Make it a personal attack and you get shut down and sent packing real quick.

I don't look for EJs.

I don't EJ.

They EJ themselves

Semper_fi is right - every situation is different. And there is a wide range of tolerances amongst the umpiring community.

A while back, I touched on the EJ I had this year. I had a coach say after a second fair/foul went against him, "That's two, blue!" I launched him. Why? Counting calls, for me, is bringing up history. And to me, it's pretty much automatic. I mean, let's be honest, the "missing phrase" after "That's two, blue!" was absolutely NOT going to be "...calls that were sublimely exquisite in their perfection!" or any variety thereof. The missing phrase was "that you screwed up."

And yet, that subject - counting calls, and the ejecting thereof - became the subject of an email from our assigner, where it was said that was not "our way, "and that we needed some kind of warning rejoinder, instead of making it automatic.

But then, after doing some brain-picking with other, more senior, umpires, I found there was still more variance to people's stance on that.

My point? Not everyone's going to agree on when someone should go in every situation. There are stories here that are universal in opinion, but in other cases, it's not. As you go, between your personal temperament, your experience, and who's taught you along the way, you'll find your "line," and refine it.

(...but to sway you - don't let 'em count on you!)

[Umpire in Chief]

As you all know Hokie and I are in the same association and I'm with him on the counting. The association does not condone an EJ for counting, but in my eye it has two auto-EJ embedded in it.

1- It is showing you up (once again associations and umpires will vary as to if this is an auto, but in my experience I've never had a coach or player count under their breath. They say it loud enough to encite the croud/players. etc, That is an auto- EJ.

2. It's a personal attack. I don't always believe that if the word "you" shows up in a discussion it is an automatic goner, but this is an impuning statement attacking my ability and knowledge.

So yes in my book counting is an auto, and there are three members of my associations board who are on the site and could hold my words against me, but so be it.

But Semper Fi, is forrect it is situational, you have to read the situation, not only in context of what is going on between you and the player or coach, but the situation of the game.

Then apply reason and try to show them you are a good guy and are trying to work with them and lay out enough line for themn to hang themselves on. If they keep biting then go ahead and sink that hook.

But umpires as a whole need to hold the line. While our individual lines will be in different places, the general location should remain constant. If you don't hold your end of the line and let things go which shouldn't the next crew will have to clean up and as certain as sunrise when they lay down the law the phrase "But the last umpires..." will come out.

When finding where your line is you may make some bad/unnecessary EJ's, but in my opinion too many is better than two few.

At some point your game management will develop and you'll just feel comfortable with when to and not to pull the trigger.

[mstaylor]

An excellent question, especially during the off season. There have been some excellent answers and advice to which I have to agree. As you progress in your carreer your line will move. In the beginning there are two camps of umpires, the first throw at the drop of a hat, the other don't toss at all. The reason for both stances are from lack of rules knowledge and lack of mechanics knowledge which leads to a lack of confidence. This isn't a slam, just a fact of life. As you learn your craft you become more confident and you will either learn when not to toss or when to toss depending in which camp you started in. You will further progress and further refine your line.

As stated by Semper, every case is different, every coach is different and every umpire is different. What one coach says may get him a ticket home, another gets to stay. What is too much for one umpire is fine with another.

Level has a lot to do with it, as does the experience level of the coach and umpire. Personalities is another componite.

As you can see there is no easy answer to your question. I have 35 yrs experience at many levels and can say things that a first year could never pull off. I also have a very low key and methodical attitude when explaining things to coaches. I have a guy that is very good with mechanics and rules but is very terse when discussing things with coaches. I watched him explain a call that I absolutely believe he got right and it almost lead to an ejection. I asked about it after the game and he explained exactly like I had it but the coach just didn't accept it from him. The coach called me as the rules interpreter and I said almost the same thing and he was fine.

[MCump]

One thing that I don't take from players is talking back to me. Once I tell you to stop talking you should stop talking. When in a conversation I tell someone to stop talking varies greatly depending on tone and content obviously. Great thread so far lets keep it going.

[dumbdumb]

But umpires as a whole need to hold the line. While our individual lines will be in different places, the general location should remain constant. If you don't hold your end of the line and let things go which shouldn't the next crew will have to clean up and as certain as sunrise when they lay down the law the phrase "But the last umpires..." will come out.

When finding where your line is you may make some bad/unnecessary EJ's, but in my opinion too many is better than two few.

At some point your game management will develop and you'll just feel comfortable with when to and not to pull the trigger.

And here is what Hall of Famer Al Barlick was quoted as saying to an umpire (of course this is MLB) which reinforces UIC in the first paragraph.

"(Umpire) Al Barlick told me years ago, ‘It’s very bad to kick a player out of a game who doesn’t deserve to get kicked out. It’s far worse not to kick a player out of the game who should have been kicked out because somebody’s going to have to go behind you and clean up your mess.’ ”

Also MST has given good advice on the unfortunate realities of the progression on handling this topic. Also, just as in life, some figure it out quicker than others or gain their acceptance and respect quicker than others although both work just as hard at their craft. Unfortunately, just as in life, some never gain that acceptance and respect no matter how hard they work, both in the areas of judgment calls and rule knowledge on the field, but also in handling situations on the field. Just the facts of life. However, come here and soak up all the information you can from many talented people on this site (no, I am not one of them) who write and explain situations, mechanics, positioning, and their rule knowledge, and it will hopefully give you an advantage in your pursuit of the level you wish to obtain.

Edited November 21, 2010 by dumbdumb

[kylejt]

The best advice for ejections I have is pretty simple. And it goes back to the ol' "they eject themselves" concept.

When you're done listening to something, or they've stepped over the line, simply put your hand up toward them (palm facing them, fingers extended), and just say "That's enough". Not loud, not threatening, and just in a conversational tone. And leave the hand up for enough time to let them say something. Three seconds should do it.

Ejectables can't help themselves, and will say something. They just can't help it. And when they do, it's a simple motion to thumb them. Those are the guys who deserve it, the uncontrolled ones. Plus, you look like the good guy. "I gave him a chance, and he chose not to take it".

Most managers will back down from this, and won't be a problem for the duration. Others will learn your warning, and won't be future problems. It really works, if you're consistent with it.

And of course there are situations where an immediate hook is needed. That's a given. But the old hand up is a good one to learn.

[moblue]

I actually have started doing that after having heard you talk about it, and it really is interesting to me how much better that seems to work than a formal warning.

[mazzamouth]

I actually have started doing that after having heard you talk about it, and it really is interesting to me how much better that seems to work than a formal warning.

here is a good tip we teach in

1. ignore

2. Acknowledge

3. Warn

4. EJ.

No sometimes you cant help to skip the 1st 3, and just EJ..

I use if I hear some chirping, I will ignore, and if it keeps going, then I will ( with my mask on) simply hold my hands about waist high and say very calmly "hey guys leave the balls and strikes alone" this method has saved me..I have only had one EJ in 3 yrs of College ball...

[mstaylor]

The best advice for ejections I have is pretty simple. And it goes back to the ol' "they eject themselves" concept.

When you're done listening to something, or they've stepped over the line, simply put your hand up toward them (palm facing them, fingers extended), and just say "That's enough". Not loud, not threatening, and just in a conversational tone. And leave the hand up for enough time to let them say something. Three seconds should do it.

Ejectables can't help themselves, and will say something. They just can't help it. And when they do, it's a simple motion to thumb them. Those are the guys who deserve it, the uncontrolled ones. Plus, you look like the good guy. "I gave him a chance, and he chose not to take it".

Most managers will back down from this, and won't be a problem for the duration. Others will learn your warning, and won't be future problems. It really works, if you're consistent with it.

And of course there are situations where an immediate hook is needed. That's a given. But the old hand up is a good one to learn.

When in a discussion that is going nowhere I will hold my hand up and say it's time to play baseball, then I turn and walk away. If he follows then he has lost his opportunity to participate.

[PeteBooth]

Morning all,

This may not be the right place for this but if its not im sorry and feel free to move it, but reading through this section of the forums got me thinking about my 'career' to this point, and how many times i just let things slide....so i pose the question how much is to much, I know people have their limits, but at what point does everyone say enough is enough and then the imfamous Captain hook Ride again?

`Ken

A good question with NO real difinitive answer.

Here is what I mean.

If the F word is said is that an automatic EJ?

Answer: It depends

If only YOU and the party involved heard it some might let it go.

Others when they hear it no matter what the circumstance give the hook.

That's why EJ type threads are difficult to respond to because there is NO clear cut answers.

Here is another - Upper ball

The PU calls a strike. The player objects and draws a line around the plate.

Some will EJ right then and there. Me I have sent "a message" meaning the next pitch no matter where it was was a strike. Most likely a thread all it's own.

The POINT as mentioned there is no DIFINITIVE answer. It's a game by game process.

You also have to take into account the nature of the teams involved meaning are these teams 'arch rivals" etc. You do not want to loose control over the game so you might have a quicker "trigger" so that the game does not spin out of control.

Case and Point: Back when the Knicks were good (seems like eons ago) the Knicks and the Heat had some fierce battles . The officials in those games called the game 'closer to the vest" then they would otherwise because those 2 teams were noted to have some fights etc.

You said

and how many times I just let things slide

....

My recommendation would be this.

If you let some things slide during those games what happened? Did the game "spin out of control" or turn ugly? Were you and your partner simply "lucky" that nothing ugly did happen.

In other words examine the games in which you had some doubts about issuing an EJ and ultimately how the game proceeded. That's a start

Pete Booth

[Mike Prince]

You will also learn by your mistakes. By this I mean that you will do post-game and you and your partner will identify a missed EJ opportunity - if there was one there's pretty much no way it's not part of an effective post-game chat.

With experience you learn and set your boundries. You don't always remember the EJ's you got, but the ones you miss stay with you for a long time.

[MT_Blue]

You said ....

My recommendation would be this.

If you let some things slide during those games what happened? Did the game "spin out of control" or turn ugly? Were you and your partner simply "lucky" that nothing ugly did happen.

Pete Booth

First off, i have seen a lot of good answers here and am enjoying the feedback, and to answer your question Pete, to this point i have been fairly fortunate, only one of the original cases i had in mind ended in a true Ej, and hence i caught a little flack for it in the usual places (the during and immediate after).

Now going back to the original question for a moment, I personally have only ever had 2 ej's One from lack of experience and knowledge and the other (which mentioned above) was in essence a gimmie..... It was actually a quote from a 'hotshot' local college umpire that sparked this question. His response to these problems is:

" act as though your umpiring with your mother standing on the other side of second base, you let the coach argue his point but the minute he says something to offend me or my mother, send him packing."

I know everyone has limits, and like i said previously im enjoying the feedback.

(p.s.) sorry if this sounds a little weird in places....had the one last paper due today before the break so last night was a bit of a stretch...:P