Base awards question

[zm1283]

R1 and R3, outs don't matter.

Batter hits a chopper toward F6 who has to charge the ball. F6 fields it and overthrows F3 at first. R3 scores from third. As F3 is going to retrieve the ball in front of the dugout, he accidentally deflects it into dead ball territory.

Where do you put the BR (Had already reached 1B when the ball went out of play) and R1 (Had already reached 2B when ball went out of play)?

[mrumpiresir]

You said the first baseman deflected the ball into DB territory. Since the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play was the throw by F6, award two bases from Time of Pitch. R3 scores, R1 gets third and BR gets second.

If the ball had come to rest and F3 provided the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play, award two bases from the time of kick or action that caused ball to go into DB Territory. Batter Runner gets third, and R1 scores.

In neither case does it matter when the ball actually entered DBT.

Edited October 20, 2010 by mrumpiresir
Change Catcher to first baseman

[Thunderheads]

You said the catcher deflected the ball into DB territory. Since the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play was the throw by F6, award two bases from Time of Pitch. R3 scores, R1 gets third and BR gets second.

If the ball had come to rest and F3 provided the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play, award two bases from the time of kick or action that caused ball to go into DB Territory. Batter Runner gets third, and R1 scores if he had 2nd.

In neither case does it matter when the ball actually entered DBT.

?? I'm no rules guru, ....and I'm probably wrong ...but isn't this time of touch by F3, no?? If so, ...and if BR had first at that time, ...doesn't he get 3rd, and R1 scores. It's a 2 base award, yes?

[Mr Umpire]

In this scenario, BR gets 3B and R1 scores. F3 caused the ball to go into DBT, not the initial throw. That is 2 bases from TOT(time of touch).

[Thunderheads]

In this scenario, BR gets 3B and R1 scores. F3 caused the ball to go into DBT, not the initial throw. That is 2 bases from TOT(time of touch).

Thanks for clarifying!! Thought maybe I need another cup of coffee, but ....maybe not! :question1:

[zm1283]

You said the catcher deflected the ball into DB territory. Since the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play was the throw by F6, award two bases from Time of Pitch. R3 scores, R1 gets third and BR gets second.

If the ball had come to rest and F3 provided the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play, award two bases from the time of kick or action that caused ball to go into DB Territory. Batter Runner gets third, and R1 scores.

In neither case does it matter when the ball actually entered DBT.

No, I said F3 (first baseman) deflected it into DBT.

I should have been more specific on how it went out of play. It did come to rest in front of the dugout after hitting the net/railing in the front of the dugout. As F3 went to pick it up, he kicked it under the net and into the dugout.

MrUmpire,

I'm not doubting you that you're right, but do you have a rules reference for an award for the Time of Touch? I'm more specifically looking for NCAA rules, because I looked in their book and could only find something about pickoffs and nothing about a play from a batted ball.

[grayhawk]

No, I said F3 (first baseman) deflected it into DBT.

I should have been more specific on how it went out of play. It did come to rest in front of the dugout after hitting the net/railing in the front of the dugout. As F3 went to pick it up, he kicked it under the net and into the dugout.

MrUmpire,

I'm not doubting you that you're right, but do you have a rules reference for an award for the Time of Touch? I'm more specifically looking for NCAA rules, because I looked in their book and could only find something about pickoffs and nothing about a play from a batted ball.

Can't help you with NCAA, but in OBR:

7.05(h) Approved Ruling - If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

[mrumpiresir]

Can't help you with NCAA, but in OBR:

7.05(h) Approved Ruling - If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

That's what the MLBUM says also. I haven't yet found a reference to "time of touch" but that is what I thought the rule was.

[zm1283]

Can't help you with NCAA, but in OBR:

7.05(h) Approved Ruling - If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

Time of pitch or throw.....but not from the "time of touch"? In the OP, F6 made the only throw, so it is two bases from the time of his throw or from the time when F3 knocks the ball into DBT? That ruling doesn't make it seem that it is "time of touch".

[UmpTTS43]

Time of pitch or throw.....but not from the "time of touch"? In the OP, F6 made the only throw, so it is two bases from the time of his throw or from the time when F3 knocks the ball into DBT? That ruling doesn't make it seem that it is "time of touch".

Maybe "time of deflection" is better terminology.

[Ump29]

There is no Time of Touch. There are only Time of Pitch and Time of Throw. Problem solved.

[mstaylor]

Time of touch translate to time of throw is the ball has stopped and a new impetus has been applied. That new motion is considered time of throw but is in reality time of touch or kick. When it actually makes no difference.

[Mr Umpire]

I stand corrected on part of what I said after re-reading the MLBUM. I made a blanket statement when in fact, there are some conditions with what I said.

If the fielder kicked or deflected the ball OOP without gaining secure possession first and unintentionally, then it is 2 bases from the TOP or TOT from the original throwing player.

If the fielder does so after gaining secure possession or intentional, then it is 2 bases from the TOK or TOD. Not technically correct in terminology but correct in practice.

For the OP, regardless if the ball came to rest or not, R1 goes to 3B and BR goes to 2B. TOP since it was the first play by an infielder and F3 didn't have secure possession of the ball before deflecting it OOP.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[UmpTTS43]

For the OP, regardless if the ball came to rest or not, R1 goes to 3B and BR goes to 2B. TOP since it was the first play by an infielder and F3 didn't have secure possession of the ball before deflecting it OOP.

Respectfully disagree.

If the ball comes to rest, the first play by an infielder has ended and a secondary play occurs, F1 kicking ball OOP. This is now a 2 base award from time of deflection.

If the ball has not come to rest, the umpire must judge whether it was the impetus of the fielder's actions or the throw that caused the ball to go OOP. If it was the latter, 2 bases time of pitch, otherwise 2 bases time of deflection for same reason above.

Having secure possesion of the ball does not come into play where a deflection OOP occurs and base awards are made.

[JaxRolo]

Respectfully disagree.

If the ball comes to rest, the first play by an infielder has ended and a secondary play occurs, F1 kicking ball OOP. This is now a 2 base award from time of deflection.

Come to rest? Never heard that that mattered. So on a bunt if the ball comes to rest before the fielder reaches it then it becomes a secondary play?

[zm1283]

Come to rest? Never heard that that mattered. So on a bunt if the ball comes to rest before the fielder reaches it then it becomes a secondary play?

No, because the first play hasn't happened yet on a bunt. In my original situation, F6 made the first play and overthrew F3. The ball came to rest in front of the dugout, and F3 kicked it into DBT when trying to retrieve it. It sounds like we should have awarded the BR 3rd base and scored F1.

[Mr Umpire]

Respectfully disagree.

If the ball comes to rest, the first play by an infielder has ended and a secondary play occurs, F1 kicking ball OOP. This is now a 2 base award from time of deflection.

If the ball has not come to rest, the umpire must judge whether it was the impetus of the fielder's actions or the throw that caused the ball to go OOP. If it was the latter, 2 bases time of pitch, otherwise 2 bases time of deflection for same reason above.

Having secure possesion of the ball does not come into play where a deflection OOP occurs and base awards are made.

A second play has not occurred. A play is defined as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. Even though the ball has come to rest, a fielder touching it is not a play or play attempt. He has to gain possession of the ball first which coincides with the second quote below.

Straight from MLBUM 5.8(emphasis is MLBUM):

If a thrown ball goes through or by a fielder, remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is 2 bases from the TOT.

Nothing about who causes the ball to go OOP. Only what the award is if it goes OOP.

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is 2 bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

This says the fielder who is picking up the ball has to have complete possession of the ball. Kicking it on the ground or pushing it with his hand without possessing the ball is not complete possession. If he picks it up at all, then that can be complete possession but not merely touching the ball.

That is how I read the MLBUM section. Unless the fielder has complete possession of the ball, even for a brief .2 seconds, then it is from TOT and not TOK or TOD.

However, I do agree it should be who/what caused the ball to go OOP to be the deciding factor. I am just showing how I read the MLBUM and that it seems to contradict that concept. I may have misunderstood it or am picturing its interp incorrectly. But, that is how I read it.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[UmpTTS43]

A second play has not occurred. A play is defined as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. Even though the ball has come to rest, a fielder touching it is not a play or play attempt. He has to gain possession of the ball first which coincides with the second quote below.

Straight from MLBUM 5.8(emphasis is MLBUM):

Nothing about who causes the ball to go OOP. Only what the award is if it goes OOP.

This says the fielder who is picking up the ball has to have complete possession of the ball. Kicking it on the ground or pushing it with his hand without possessing the ball is not complete possession. If he picks it up at all, then that can be complete possession but not merely touching the ball.

That is how I read the MLBUM section. Unless the fielder has complete possession of the ball, even for a brief .2 seconds, then it is from TOT and not TOK or TOD.

However, I do agree it should be who/what caused the ball to go OOP to be the deciding factor. I am just showing how I read the MLBUM and that it seems to contradict that concept. I may have misunderstood it or am picturing its interp incorrectly. But, that is how I read it.

You are absolutely right and I was absolutely wrong. Thanks for the reference.

Edited October 21, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[yawetag]

No one's specifically asked, but here's Fed case plays on the matter. There's nothing specific to the OP, but you can gleam what the answer would be:

8.3.3J: B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or ( the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING: In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (B), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

8.3.3k is basically the same, only dealing with F2 that kicks a ball OOP after a pitch. So, in the OP situation, it implies F3 "applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory". This would be the second play by an infielder, so every runner gets 2 bases from time of kick (throw) by F3.

[mazzamouth]

Can't help you with NCAA, but in OBR:

7.05(h) Approved Ruling - If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

NCAA rule 8-3

o. Each runner is entitled to two bases:

(4) If, during an attempt to field a wild pitch, passed ball, or wild throw

on a pick-off attempt, the catcher or any other fielder deflects the ball

into a dead-ball territory, the runner(s) shall be awarded two bases

from the bases occupied at the time of the pitch.

A.R.—If the ball has stopped rolling or it is clear that the ball will not roll into dead ball

territory and a new impetus is applied to the ball by a defensive player, the awards are

two bases from the time of the act.

(5) If any batted or thrown ball intentionally is kicked, thrown, deflected

or carried into a dead-ball territory, the runner(s) shall be awarded

two bases from the time of the act; or

[Mr Umpire]

NCAA rule 8-3

o. Each runner is entitled to two bases:

(4) If, during an attempt to field a wild pitch, passed ball, or wild throw

on a pick-off attempt, the catcher or any other fielder deflects the ball

into a dead-ball territory, the runner(s) shall be awarded two bases

from the bases occupied at the time of the pitch.

A.R.—If the ball has stopped rolling or it is clear that the ball will not roll into dead ball

territory and a new impetus is applied to the ball by a defensive player, the awards are

two bases from the time of the act.

(5) If any batted or thrown ball intentionally is kicked, thrown, deflected

or carried into a dead-ball territory, the runner(s) shall be awarded

two bases from the time of the act; or

I guess this is a case of where NCAA and FED agree on a ruling but OBR is different in regards to the impetus part.