got dinged on my eval - what would you have done?

[bengalvfan]

I am working the plate in a little league minors game with R2 stealing, Catcher throws the ball to 3B and R2 slides headfirst. Third base umpire signals safe and does not say anything about he headfirst slide. The first base umpire and myself look at each other and wondering why he did not call him out for a head first slide. I give him a bit of time to realize there was a headfirst slide but I assume he has forgotten that sliding headfirst is not allowed. I call time and rule a headfirst slide and the runner is out. Now the 3b coach says that he tripped. I call the umpires together and we all have a headfirst slide and not a trip and call the runner out. I was the one that signaled the out coming out of our meeting.

So after the game I was told that the headfirst slide was the 3b umpires call and if the coaches did not call time and ask U3 to get help I should of not said anything. Now I can understand not saying anything if this was a simple safe/out judgement call but I believed this to be different. I also was dinged for signaling the out after our meeting since this was U3 original call but felt that under the circumstances it kinda became my call since I had assumed earlier that he didn't know a headfirst slide was not allowed and was the one who called the runner out before our meeting discussing a trip or not.

What would have some of you guys done in the situation as the plate umpire? I did want to say that I did agree with the eval about U3 making the out call out of our meeting but did not think this was me over ruling another umpire on the field.

[JaxRolo]

First, after the play was over I would have called time and got the crew together. After telling U3 then let him change the call.

I do not agree that you wait for the coach to say something.

[bengalvfan]

Thanks,

That does sound like the best route and I should of handled it that way.

[JaxRolo]

I'm sure other will chime in.

I'm usually incorrect when I give my opinions! :fuel:

[Jocko]

I'm sure other will chime in.

I'm usually incorrect when I give my opinions!

yes you are! I hate the no head first slide rule. play some real baseball. Whatever. IMHO, you were checking his oil for him. I wouldn't initiate ANYTHING. If the coach isn't smart enough to realize he has a cheap out he doesn't deserve it. Hope the next pitch comes in before he brings it up. Talk to U3 between innings. He prolly was consumed with the timing and tag. Easy to do.

[SoCal Lurker]

yes you are! I hate the no head first slide rule. play some real baseball. Whatever. IMHO, you were checking his oil for him. I wouldn't initiate ANYTHING. If the coach isn't smart enough to realize he has a cheap out he doesn't deserve it. Hope the next pitch comes in before he brings it up. Talk to U3 between innings. He prolly was consumed with the timing and tag. Easy to do.

We're talking about kids. So many kids at LL can't do a regular slide properly, let alone a head first slide. There are LL rules that I would not personally adopt for safety, I'm on board with this one as something that actually has safety value -- a bad regular slide can break a leg (which LL helps avoid w/ break away bases), but a bad head first slide risks paralysis. (As a non-ump, I'm a bit ambivalent about whether to go to the ump or wait for the coach to complain -- since it is a safety rule, I wioldn't lose much sleep over going directly to the other ump.)

[T-Rav]

This is a clear out in the LL rule book, therefore I would get together with my crew(3 umpires for a LL minor game..? ) and have U3 make the out call. You can't ignore a clear out in the LL rule book.

[Jocko]

So do your job and TEACH them! That's what coaches are supposed to do, right?

[Jocko]

I'm outta this string. No more comments about LL (yuck!)

[grayhawk]

This is an interesting question - thanks for posting it. The best answer that I can come up with is that I would not say anything. Here is my reasoning:

1. While there are some calls, such as interference, that can be called by any umpire, I don't think this is one of those calls.

2. It's not one of those calls because this is a safe/out call at a base with a clear division of responsibilities. For example, if you saw something (such as a pulled foot) that you were 100% certain made a safe/out call made by your partner incorrect, you would not change the call, nor initiate a discussion with him.

3. Maybe he did see it but didn't call it for a good reason. By annoucing to the world that, even though it wasn't your call, you are "overruling" him, you are making this call without the benefit of knowing what he knows.

4. Stepping on his call makes the whole crew look bad.

Here's what I would do: I would pregame with my partner(s) that if I had information I felt he needed, then I would stand in a place I would not normally be standing. If he doesn't pick up on this within 10 seconds or so, then I'll go back to my position and get ready for the next pitch. If he does pick up on this and comes to me, then I'll give him what I've got and let him stay with his call or change it as he sees fit. It's his call and he has to own it either way.

[SoCal Lurker]

So do your job and TEACH them! That's what coaches are supposed to do, right?

There is a lot to learn in baseball, and evey year players join LL who have never played before. In many places there may not be more than one practice a week. So you rally think that while 9 year ols are still playing on closed bases w/o lead offs, it's a good use of very limited practice time to teach kids to slide head first when many of them can barely throw a baseball, don't kow how to round a base, haven't figured out what to do on a pop fly in the infield, and stand holding the ball in the field because they can't figure out where to throw it? And what portion of LL minors coaches do you think are really capable of teaching a kid to slide head first safely? I get the "let's play real BB" concept, but it isn'tthe LL mantra which focuses on learning to play first -- no head first slides is hardly a greater offense to the purity of the game than closed bases. At competitive levles of baseball it's a different issue, but for LL minors (and maybe even majors -- I'm more ambivalent about the rule there) this makes a whole lot of sense to me as a way to let the kids play baseball with some modifications to help them learn before they have to put all the pieces together. And it lets the volunteer coaches develop along with the kids and not try to teach everything all at once.

[mstaylor]

The headfirst prohibitions came from research done by pediatric orthopedics. Their research showed head damage in 9/10s from headfirst slides. Less so in 11/12s but LL decided to outlaw them in all 60ft games since some leagues do have 9/10s in majors. I don't see a problem with this rule, it is a safety rule. There are some LL rules that I would like to see go away, this isn't one.

Now in the OP, I vote for conferencing and see why he didn't call the illegal slide. Get all three of you together and reach a call and let him announce it if he is changing it.

[kylejt]

Umpires nowadays are under more pressure to just get the call right. It's a trickle down from MLB.

Me, I'm all about getting the procedure right, rather then just getting the call right. Let everyone do their job.

So, I would have stayed back, and made the D manager do his job, by coming out and having a talk with U3.

[boyinr]

The headfirst prohibitions came from research done by pediatric orthopedics. Their research showed head damage in 9/10s from headfirst slides. Less so in 11/12s but LL decided to outlaw them in all 60ft games since some leagues do have 9/10s in majors. I don't see a problem with this rule, it is a safety rule. There are some LL rules that I would like to see go away, this isn't one.

Now in the OP, I vote for conferencing and see why he didn't call the illegal slide. Get all three of you together and reach a call and let him announce it if he is changing it.

^^^^^^ +1. A rule put in place for player safety should not be ignored. Even more so in a game involving 9&10 year olds. That is edging towards negligence which opens up a can of worms.

[mstaylor]

If you choose to say nothing, which is a decent options, get him in for a discussion ASAP so he doesn't miss it again. Trout, as I remember LL is not the only system with the no head first slide.

[carolinablue]

This isn't just a safe/out call, it's a rules issue. I see no problem getting together and just mentioning it to the 3B umpire who made the call. If he says he thought he tripped then he tripped but he may not of even thought about this rule. I know I've had them headfirst slide right under my nose and I will always forget about it. I would let him make the final call.

BTW, a three man crew for minors ? WOW.

[johnnyg08]

Nice a Rat coach in youth ball.

Rat Coach to umpire: "That wasn't a head first slide, he tripped."

Give me a break