Dropped 3rd Strike for 3rd Out?

[Yankeesfan1324]

2 outs, runner on 3rd. Batter swings at strike 3, catcher drops it. Runner advances home an touches it before the out at 1st is made. Does the run count?

I had this situation and told the coaches it didnt count, and the coach tried to argue that it did count. I said no as it was a force (just like a groundout) and my partner agreed. Were we right or was he?

[Umpire in Chief]

The run does not count.

The batter was in effect forced to 1st. So a forced runner being putout nullifies the run.

[Yankeesfan1324]

Yeah, thats what we thought

[Rich Ives]

Right call - wrong reason.

It is NOT a force at 1B.

HOWEVER

The run doesn't count if the 3rd out is made by the batter-runner before touching 1B.

4.09 (a )

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a

play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is

declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[johnnyg08]

and the coach tried to argue that it did count. I said no as it was a force (just like a groundout) and my partner agreed. Were we right or was he?

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

[SoCal Lurker]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

[mstaylor]

I don't understand how anybody that has been around baseball for any amount of time can think that a tag can't be a force out. I don't really get not knowing an out on the BR negates the run but it does seem to be a common myth.

[sdix00]

I don't understand how anybody that has been around baseball for any amount of time can think that a tag can't be a force out. I don't really get not knowing an out on the BR negates the run but it does seem to be a common myth.

I agree that once you have seen it ruled correctly once, it's never again an issue for coaches. But the parents love to re-enact the scene in Planet of the Apes where one of their own gets abused and all the apes start grabbing the bars on their cages and shaking and screaming violently.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I don't understand how anybody that has been around baseball for any amount of time can think that a tag can't be a force out. I don't really get not knowing an out on the BR negates the run but it does seem to be a common myth.

I agree that once you have seen it ruled correctly once, it's never again an issue for coaches. But the parents love to re-enact the scene in Planet of the Apes where one of their own gets abused and all the apes start grabbing the bars on their cages and shaking and screaming violently.

I like Chuck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsbYx6hevoQ&feature=related

[Jocko]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

So, since you let this go YOUR way, would you have argued it if it was the run that beat you? Can't have it both ways.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

So, since you let this go YOUR way, would you have argued it if it was the run that beat you? Can't have it both ways.

Desperate for threads to respond to much? :fuel:

[Jocko]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

So, since you let this go YOUR way, would you have argued it if it was the run that beat you? Can't have it both ways.

Desperate for threads to respond to much?

HEY, I was just asking if he wanted ice cream AND cake :fuel:

[umpcoachfather]

but did the pitcher take signs off the rubber?

[SoCal Lurker]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

So, since you let this go YOUR way, would you have argued it if it was the run that beat you? Can't have it both ways.

Since when is it the obligation of a coach to correct the umpire on rules errors that favor his team. I'm sure you see that a lot in your games. You're seriously suggesting that I'm supposed to make a stink and piss off the U because I'm pretty sure he made a mistake that helped my team? Am I supposed to file a protest for the other team, too?

(That said, truth be told, in this rec league, were I 100% sure, I would have tried to gently say something -- I've done that several times as a soccer coach. After I checked out the rule following the game, when I had a casual conversation later I did carefully mention it -- U was still convinced that I didn't understand the difference between a tag and a force -- but maybe he was thinking enough that he was going to ask someone he trusted.)

[Jocko]

I promise you with almost 100% certainty, he also knew the run didn't count. R-A-T

How can you have that certainty without even knowing the level of ball. The umpires for the game were uncertain enough about the call to post here to be sure, so why assume that the coach knew how the rule applied to D3K? (Had a Bronco game for which I was assistant coach and scorekeeper [yeah, I know, but it's rec], and with R1, R3 2 outs, F4 tagged the runner going to second; U told me it was a time play because it was tag instead of a force so the run [for our team] scored -- our manager thought that was right, and the manager of the other team was expaining to his team why the U was right. I was pretty sure the run shouldn't count, but what am I gonna do, argue with the U about it?) I'd be careful about attributing malice where ignorance is an awfully good explanation. The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

-SCL

(aka a daddy-coach trying not to be a rat)

So, since you let this go YOUR way, would you have argued it if it was the run that beat you? Can't have it both ways.

I'm sure you see that a lot in your games.

Never.... I know the rules.

[Jocko]

You're not "obligated" to do anything but keep the book. I'm not suggesting any action/inaction. I just want to know if you would try to convince the umpire of the CORRECT ruling if the other team scored the game winning run on a force 3rd out? No response is necessary, but this little personal look inside oneself is character revealing. I have no opinion. Answer the question to yourself and think about it. Sports don't BUILD character, they REVEAL character.

[SoCal Lurker]

You're not "obligated" to do anything but keep the book. I'm not suggesting any action/inaction. I just want to know if you would try to convince the umpire of the CORRECT ruling if the other team scored the game winning run on a force 3rd out? No response is necessary, but this little personal look inside oneself is character revealing. I have no opinion. Answer the question to yourself and think about it. Sports don't BUILD character, they REVEAL character.

Did you actually read my whole post, or would that have interfered with your self-righteous pontificating? Don't bother responding as I'm done.

[Jocko]

You're not "obligated" to do anything but keep the book. I'm not suggesting any action/inaction. I just want to know if you would try to convince the umpire of the CORRECT ruling if the other team scored the game winning run on a force 3rd out? No response is necessary, but this little personal look inside oneself is character revealing. I have no opinion. Answer the question to yourself and think about it. Sports don't BUILD character, they REVEAL character.

Did you actually read my whole post, or would that have interfered with your self-righteous pontificating? Don't bother responding as I'm done.

typical response. When one is faced with a personal dilemma, it is typical to react in a defensive manner. My purpose was for you to ask yourself ABOUT yourself. Now you know the kind of person you REALLY are deep down. I understand your agression towards the person that put you in front of the mirror of true self. It's a hard thing to see oneself as we are. Now it's up to each of us to make ourselves into the person we want to be. Isn't baseball a great vehicle for personal growth?

[Richvee]

The more I understand the rules, the more I understand how little so many understand about the rules.

Never has truer words been said.

Four years ago when I took on this grand endeavor of umpiring and doing all I could to be good at it, I thought I knew the rules from playing most of my life. Never imagined how much there is to know. Also never imagined I'd love learning it all and what a passion this little "hobby" would become.

[stl_ump]

Hey.. I got one right!

The run does not count.

The batter was in effect forced to 1st. So a forced runner being putout nullifies the run.