Fake Tag

[jjskitours]

R1 on first and B1 hit a clean single to right. R1 rounds second and heads for third. F5, without ball, fakes a tag on R1 as he approaches third causing R1 to slide (and inijure himself not that it matters to the rule). After all playing action has ended, U2 calls obstruction, issues a team warning and awards R1 ....

Yes, the answer appears to be third base as R1 had no chance to score on the play. So, R1 gets nothing extra and F5 and his team suffer nothing other than a team warning. Agree?

[noumpere]

Seems to be right to me since the obstruction happened before third base then the minamum award is third base and thats what the umpire did.

[Mike Prince]

Sounds like the correct award unless U2 feels he would have gotten home without the OBS.

[Welpe]

Sounds like the correct award unless U2 feels he would have gotten home without the OBS.

Agreed. Minimum award of third base.

[Rich Ives]

I know this is the HS forum but in reality: What rules? Because:

Fake tag is legal in OBR.

Illegal in FED and LL.

LL uses the OBR obstruction rule (adding fake tag to the definition) so the umpire can award whatever he wishes to nullify the act. So you could award home.There is also no minimum on Type B.

In FED you'e stuck with the minimum of one and the base he would have achieved.

[Welpe]

What rules?

Well judging by the location of the post... :wave:

[jkumpire]

Rich,

We crank on FED all the time for rules, but there is method to their madness.

According to their statisitics which seem sound, the overwhelming majority of serious injuries in HS Baseball involve sliding plays around the bases where the defensive or offensive player involved gets hurt. So, you make fake tags illegal so there are fewer late or unexpected slides, or where a runner gets caught half way between a slide and a stride because he's surprised the ball is coming in.

We may not like it, but FED makes it's rules for player safety/nobody gets easily sued first and second because so many FED umpires are not like us, they don't study the rules much, and they need things simplified for them. But I do note that Rules Committee on their questionaire this year did ask if people would favor not automitaically killing the ball on balks, which is a welcome change if they go through with it. (Especially since last week in a FED game I balked an F1 who finished his pitch anyway and the hit ball ended up deep in the RCF gap).

[JaxRolo]

I guess I am wrong on this but I may be inclined to award Home since the tag basically happened on third. I might say he was obstructed from trying for Home by causing the slide.

Go ahead let me have it. I'll only cry for a minute! :shrug:

[Umpete]

See case play 8.3.2 B. Not exactly the same but the award is always "at least one base beyond....." In the OP, the obstruction occurred at third base, so I am awarding home.

[scrounge]

See case play 8.3.2 B. Not exactly the same but the award is always "at least one base beyond....." In the <acronym title='Original post '>OP</acronym>, the obstruction occurred at third base, so I am awarding home.

But it's 1 base beyond what the runner has already obtained, not the base he's trying to get to. If in your judgement he would have gotten to 3rd (i.e., he hasn't gotten to 3rd YET) but not scored, the proper award is indeed 3rd. In that case play, R1 gets 2nd whether he's advancing to 2nd or retreating to 1st, since he already attained 1st but not yet 2nd.

[Umpete]

You're right scrounge - I read the case play too quickly.

[Rich Ives]

Rich,

We crank on FED all the time for rules, but there is method to their madness.

According to their statisitics which seem sound, the overwhelming majority of serious injuries in HS Baseball involve sliding plays around the bases where the defensive or offensive player involved gets hurt. So, you make fake tags illegal so there are fewer late or unexpected slides, or where a runner gets caught half way between a slide and a stride because he's surprised the ball is coming in.

We may not like it, but FED makes it's rules for player safety/nobody gets easily sued first and second because so many FED umpires are not like us, they don't study the rules much, and they need things simplified for them. But I do note that Rules Committee on their questionaire this year did ask if people would favor not automitaically killing the ball on balks, which is a welcome change if they go through with it. (Especially since last week in a FED game I balked an F1 who finished his pitch anyway and the hit ball ended up deep in the RCF gap).

It's not about the fake tag - it's about what you can award. If you essentially award nothing what have you taught the defense?

[SanDiegoSteve]

What rules?

Well judging by the location of the post...

There are some (at least one that I know of) states that don't use FED rules for HS baseball.

[Welpe]

I know Mass uses OBR and I think they're the only one but 99% of the time if it's here I think the assumption is the topic is FED.

[mstaylor]

Don't get too rung up about the one base minimum. Many want it to be a maximum but you can get the one base plus what you think will offset the obstruction. I would be inclined to give him home.

[noumpere]

Rich,

We crank on FED all the time for rules, but there is method to their madness.

According to their statisitics which seem sound, the overwhelming majority of serious injuries in HS Baseball involve sliding plays around the bases where the defensive or offensive player involved gets hurt. So, you make fake tags illegal so there are fewer late or unexpected slides, or where a runner gets caught half way between a slide and a stride because he's surprised the ball is coming in.

We may not like it, but FED makes it's rules for player safety/nobody gets easily sued first and second because so many FED umpires are not like us, they don't study the rules much, and they need things simplified for them. But I do note that Rules Committee on their questionaire this year did ask if people would favor not automitaically killing the ball on balks, which is a welcome change if they go through with it. (Especially since last week in a FED game I balked an F1 who finished his pitch anyway and the hit ball ended up deep in the RCF gap).

It's not about the fake tag - it's about what you can award. If you essentially award nothing what have you taught the defense?

Theres also a warning and an ejection on the next one that goes with the fake tag so thats the extra safety penalty thats applied. Other than that its just like any other obstruction and no additional base need be awarded

[24sdad]

Don't get too rung up about the one base minimum. Many want it to be a maximum but you can get the one base plus what you think will offset the obstruction. I would be inclined to give him home.

I agree. Third base is the minimum base he would (and probably should) be awarded.

Having said that, and this is just my personal opinion, baseball needs to be taught and played correctly. There are acceptable and legal dekes in this game, but this is just not one of them. To me it is horse$hit and has no place in baseball. I know it is the coach's job to teach, but sometimes an allowable "lesson" issued by an umpire might make a more lasting impression on the young lad.

I would be very tempted to award home and would have no problem justifying it with the DC if/when he came out. If I saw another umpire award home, I would support his decision all day long.

When my son was 13 playing TB, he was F3 with R1/R2. Following a pitch, he moved in behind R1 as F2 pump faked a throw to first. My son acted like he received a throw and put a tag down on the runner. After the inning was over he was allowed to remain on the bench for the rest of the game to ponder the error of his ways.