I tossed Joe Torre.....

[umpcoachfather]

LL game last year. I never do them because my kids play in the league and I'm on the board. They had a no show and I was there and had my equipment.

I called for the plate meeting and knew it was going to be bad as both coaches looked at me like I had 2 heads, I should have known it was going to be a problem from that point on. I went over the ground rules, safety, sportsmanship and fairplay etc... the VC was attired in 100% full Yankees regalia, shoes, hat, shorts, shirt even his clipboard had a Yankees sticker on it.

2nd inning - R2, no outs. Batter flys to deep center field, I move out and line up to watch the catch and see if I can catch the tag up, no catch. I move to cover the plate. throw comes in from cutoff and its gonna be close, Catcher is about 3 feet in front of home plate, not sure why. throw comes in hits in front of the catcher - catcher thinking he has the ball jumps into baseline and R2 and catch collide, the ball is sitting in front of home plate where catcher left it. I signal and call obstruction, R2 gets up and touches home, I remove obstruction call and place batter at 3rd. VC freaks out about the collision and want BR tossed and no run. He is yelling, I stand with hands behind my back and state "I had obstruction, runs score, lets continue" he gets in my face, i walk away, he chases as I write down the situation. I stop and say coach lets play The call stands, he starts goin off about appealing, I told him coach you can do what ever you want but its a judgement call and can't be appealed. I tell him to get in the dug out he gets in my face again and says " your an a** hole, you know your wrong" He gets tossed. I turn around and a parent is very close to the fence behind home plate, he says " Im waiting for you after the game, your mine" I call the cops. Its my town they are from another, I tell both coaches play will resume after the police arrive. The parent starts walking away but I keep my eye on him, cops come, I point the guy out, we get questioned. I state my case, the parent denies, 3 people standing there all state that he said it. The cops question the guy and start writting the report, I get the game restarted and finish the inning. they call me over and ask me what I want, they were gonna lock him up and gave me a choice, lock him up or allow him to leave. It was a 2 day tournament so I said I want him gone and that means the whole weekend and the rest of the year if they come back to play. he waits on a corner about 3 blocks away for a cab. I start the game and 3 kids on that team apologized to me for the coaches behavior, one said " we all hate him, thanks for kicking him out". the assistant coach came out and asked if it was obstruction because the catcher didnt have the ball, I said yes and he said thought so, I asked him if he could ensure the parents knew, he said dont worry they all hate Joe Torre anyway. Sorry this is so long, that's one of the reasons I dont do lower levels anymore.

[SanDiegoSteve]

The proper call is "Time, that's Obstruction." At that point, you should have awarded R2 home plate. I am confused because you said that you "removed" the Obstruction call. I do think it's funny that they all call the guy Joe Torre. I wonder if it's just behind his back.

[umpcoachfather]

I didnt call time because i didnt consider it a play being made on the runner, becuase the ball was left in front of the plate. I stuck my arm out said that obstruction (pointing) and dropped it when he touched home. I'd love to hear comments about time being called or not. Never too old to learn. Thanks SDSteve. PS - I hate the fact that you always have nice weather.

[scrounge]

Isn't obstruction a delayed dead ball? I thought the call is exactly like like umpcoachfather said, point and say it, watch the play continue, if the runner attains the base he would have gotten absent the obstruction then drop it.

[grayhawk]

It was a play being made on the runner - doesn't matter if F2 failed to pick up the ball. LL is based on OBR and this is Type A obstruction and an immediate dead ball.

An example of delayed dead ball and type B obstruction would be a batter-runner rounding 1B after a base hit and F3 gets in his way. No play being made on him. Allow the play to continue and then award if necessary.

[scrounge]

Oops, duh on me...this is what I get for having FED on the brain so much

[grayhawk]

Also, a couple of things on handling the situation:

You said the coach was yelling. "Coach, I will listen to you, but I won't listen to you yell at me." Do not discuss the play with him until he settles down. Once he does, ask him what he saw. Listen without interrupting him. Once he is done, or starts to repeat himself, you can then tell him what you had on the play. Use rule book terminology. "Coach, the catcher impeded the runner without possession of the ball. By rule, this is obstruction and the runner is awarded home. Let's play baseball." If he tries to continue the conversation, shut him down and tell him that if he doesn't return to the dugout, you will have to eject him for delaying the game.

While coaches can't "argue" judgement calls, on a play like this, they certainly deserve some explanation, as long as everything is civil. Don't just shut them down from the get go and tell them the call stands without telling them what you had and why you ruled the way you did. If he wants to protest your application of the obstruction rule, then accept the protest, record everything and get the game moving.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I didnt call time because i didnt consider it a play being made on the runner, becuase the ball was left in front of the plate. I stuck my arm out said that obstruction (pointing) and dropped it when he touched home. I'd love to hear comments about time being called or not. Never too old to learn. Thanks SDSteve. PS - I hate the fact that you always have nice weather.

Yes, since it is OBR based rules used in LL, it is Type A Obstruction, like Grayhawk said. There was a play being made on the runner, whether or not the catcher had the ball. You should call Time and award the OBS. It would not have even been OBS if the catcher did have the ball. Not having a play on the runner would be if the ball was thrown to another base or area where the base runner wasn't. That's Type B OBS. Also, don't signal with the left arm turn signal FED DDB mechanic on Type B, just point at it and say, "That's Obstruction!" In OBR, the DDB signal is not a recognized mechanic. Heck, I don't know too many who use it in FED anymore either.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I agree with everything Hawk said, except asking the coach what he has.

I virtually never ask a coach what he has. I make him lower his voice and stop pointing and waving his arms, and then I tell him what I have. What he has from a bucket 50 feet away is usually irrelevant anyway. And it certainly isn't going to change anything. It can be done in a way that doesn't compound his frustration, but I treat it as he came out to get an explanation, not give an explanation.

Now, a rule misinterpretation can be a little different. I will allow a coach to explain a rule just so he can look foolish in public. That I allow. My favorite is when I ask a coach, "So, how did he balk?" So far, not one coach has ever been able to explain the balk he claimed I missed.

[T-Rav]

Do they call you Laz Diaz? :)

[SanDiegoSteve]

♪♫♬ He said "my name is Lazarus, can I testify?" ♪♫♬

[grayhawk]

I agree with everything Hawk said, except asking the coach what he has.

I virtually never ask a coach what he has. I make him lower his voice and stop pointing and waving his arms, and then I tell him what I have. What he has from a bucket 50 feet away is usually irrelevant anyway. And it certainly isn't going to change anything. It can be done in a way that doesn't compound his frustration, but I treat it as he came out to get an explanation, not give an explanation.

Now, a rule misinterpretation can be a little different. I will allow a coach to explain a rule just so he can look foolish in public. That I allow. My favorite is when I ask a coach, "So, how did he balk?" So far, not one coach has ever been able to explain the balk he claimed I missed.

I can definitely see your point, Kevin, and game management is certainly a "personal" thing in that a style that works for one umpire may not work for another. I find that asking them what they saw sometimes leads to a different discussion than I think we are about to have when they ask for time. This allows me to focus on their objection without bringing in extraneous information. Often, I can also use what they tell me they saw against them in the discussion. I'll give you an example that happened last week:

FED rules, one man game: R1 and R2 with 1 out. Ground ball fielded by F5 moving to his left. Throw to second for the out. R1 contacts F4 and no throw is made to first. The contact was hard, but not malicious. DC reacts to the play by yelling "he can't do that in high school" from the dugout. F4 is hurt, so I call time. DC walks out to second base to attend to his player (I went out as well). F4 is holding his shin and in pain. After a minute, he is able to get up and stay in the game. As we are walking off the field, DC reiterates that the runner can't do that in high school. I ask DC what he saw and he proceeds to describe to me exactly what happened - that the runner contacted his second baseman while he was on the bag. I was able to then tell him that I saw the same thing and that a fielder on the bag is not protected by FPSR. Also, the runner slid legally (I reminded DC that his F4 was hurt in the shin, which is below the knee - legal slide) and that R1 had to slide directly into the bag or there would have been no contact. In short, there was nothing illegal about the play. It was all very civil, which no doubt was aided by the time spent attending to his player.

So asking him what he saw is strategic. I'm not doing it to be a good guy.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Excellent!

Tip of the [creased black six-stitch] cap to you, Hawk! Great stuff.

[bam]

I didn't think coaches could wear uniforms in LL.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I agree with everything Hawk said, except asking the coach what he has.

I virtually never ask a coach what he has. I make him lower his voice and stop pointing and waving his arms, and then I tell him what I have. What he has from a bucket 50 feet away is usually irrelevant anyway. And it certainly isn't going to change anything. It can be done in a way that doesn't compound his frustration, but I treat it as he came out to get an explanation, not give an explanation.

Now, a rule misinterpretation can be a little different. I will allow a coach to explain a rule just so he can look foolish in public. That I allow. My favorite is when I ask a coach, "So, how did he balk?" So far, not one coach has ever been able to explain the balk he claimed I missed.

I can definitely see your point, Kevin, and game management is certainly a "personal" thing in that a style that works for one umpire may not work for another. I find that asking them what they saw sometimes leads to a different discussion than I think we are about to have when they ask for time. This allows me to focus on their objection without bringing in extraneous information. Often, I can also use what they tell me they saw against them in the discussion. I'll give you an example that happened last week:

FED rules, one man game: R1 and R2 with 1 out. Ground ball fielded by F5 moving to his left. Throw to second for the out. R1 contacts F4 and no throw is made to first. The contact was hard, but not malicious. DC reacts to the play by yelling "he can't do that in high school" from the dugout. F4 is hurt, so I call time. DC walks out to second base to attend to his player (I went out as well). F4 is holding his shin and in pain. After a minute, he is able to get up and stay in the game. As we are walking off the field, DC reiterates that the runner can't do that in high school. I ask DC what he saw and he proceeds to describe to me exactly what happened - that the runner contacted his second baseman while he was on the bag. I was able to then tell him that I saw the same thing and that a fielder on the bag is not protected by FPSR. Also, the runner slid legally (I reminded DC that his F4 was hurt in the shin, which is below the knee - legal slide) and that R1 had to slide directly into the bag or there would have been no contact. In short, there was nothing illegal about the play. It was all very civil, which no doubt was aided by the time spent attending to his player.

So asking him what he saw is strategic. I'm not doing it to be a good guy.

It would be a violation of the FED FPSR if any part of the runner slid past the base. Where did his slide end up?

[HokieUmp]

Now, a rule misinterpretation can be a little different. I will allow a coach to explain a rule just so he can look foolish in public. That I allow. My favorite is when I ask a coach, "So, how did he balk?" So far, not one coach has ever been able to explain the balk he claimed I missed.

Well, now you're just being mean. :)

[grayhawk]

I agree with everything Hawk said, except asking the coach what he has.

I virtually never ask a coach what he has. I make him lower his voice and stop pointing and waving his arms, and then I tell him what I have. What he has from a bucket 50 feet away is usually irrelevant anyway. And it certainly isn't going to change anything. It can be done in a way that doesn't compound his frustration, but I treat it as he came out to get an explanation, not give an explanation.

Now, a rule misinterpretation can be a little different. I will allow a coach to explain a rule just so he can look foolish in public. That I allow. My favorite is when I ask a coach, "So, how did he balk?" So far, not one coach has ever been able to explain the balk he claimed I missed.

I can definitely see your point, Kevin, and game management is certainly a "personal" thing in that a style that works for one umpire may not work for another. I find that asking them what they saw sometimes leads to a different discussion than I think we are about to have when they ask for time. This allows me to focus on their objection without bringing in extraneous information. Often, I can also use what they tell me they saw against them in the discussion. I'll give you an example that happened last week:

FED rules, one man game: R1 and R2 with 1 out. Ground ball fielded by F5 moving to his left. Throw to second for the out. R1 contacts F4 and no throw is made to first. The contact was hard, but not malicious. DC reacts to the play by yelling "he can't do that in high school" from the dugout. F4 is hurt, so I call time. DC walks out to second base to attend to his player (I went out as well). F4 is holding his shin and in pain. After a minute, he is able to get up and stay in the game. As we are walking off the field, DC reiterates that the runner can't do that in high school. I ask DC what he saw and he proceeds to describe to me exactly what happened - that the runner contacted his second baseman while he was on the bag. I was able to then tell him that I saw the same thing and that a fielder on the bag is not protected by FPSR. Also, the runner slid legally (I reminded DC that his F4 was hurt in the shin, which is below the knee - legal slide) and that R1 had to slide directly into the bag or there would have been no contact. In short, there was nothing illegal about the play. It was all very civil, which no doubt was aided by the time spent attending to his player.

So asking him what he saw is strategic. I'm not doing it to be a good guy.

It would be a violation of the FED FPSR if any part of the runner slid past the base. Where did his slide end up?

Not so:

2-32-2: A slide is illegal if:

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

The "and then" are the key words. This protects the fielder who is behind the bag, but not ON the bag. Sliding past the base is only illegal if the runner then makes contact or alters the play.

[umpcoachfather]

Update: My son had a game this weekend and as I was going to the stand I saw him at another field. Same Yankees gear (to answer above, not a uniform, it just look likes he bought one of each in the Yankees isle at Modells) He was sitting on a bucket in the entry of the dugout. I walked to the backstop after the innning and told the ump (friend of mine) about the guy, and he said he was chirping all game, i told him to make him move to see what would happen and he did it when the first batter came up. he was pissed and couldnt see his batters anymore, so he couldnt chirp. after the game I talked to my friend and he said he wouldnt stop chirping ( my friend is laid back), we spoke about him fixing that in the future to stop the chirping. I spoke to the Ump assigner and he said the guys been a PITA since the season started. (2 weeks!! maybe) all the umps are bad and his team can't compete if they arent fair. He's 0-4 and 2 games ended early due to mercy rule. Parents - jeeeeeez.