Exchange with Coach....

[yawetag]

Andrew, I thought the same thing. I would have given him a pass on the pulling the packet simply because it was a local rule. Once he started reading, bang.

One of my "close" ejections was almost this. The local field was hosting a (horrible) softball team, so I was one of the umpires chosen to do the game. At this time, I had ZERO experience in softball. I can't even tell you what rule code the league was using.

I was BU. VT's batter walked. As she reached 1B, she turned and took off for 2B. HC comes out arguing. I place BR back on 1B (I know, I know!). VC comes out arguing about the play, stating something about "look-back rule" . I didn't have much of an argument, but I tried. After my response, she says, "I'll bring the rule book out here and show you!" I tell her, "Don't do it. I'll have to eject you." I could tell in her eyes that she was right, but I had NO IDEA about softball rules.

After the game (which she won without any trouble), the other umpire and I stayed to talk to her. She showed me the rule (I still can't tell you what rule code it was, though). I explained to her that we weren't even trained in softball rules, but were the best she could have gotten at the field. She understood, and even thanked us for doing a good(?) job.

Long story short, NEVER allow a coach to pull out a rule book on the field. Of all the ways to show you up, this is (in my opinion) the worst.

[txump81]

Who would really want to win a game that way? What's it teaching the kids?

Yep, but it happens all the time. Time limit is close, defensive team has a 1 run lead. What would you do...pitching change. Pitcher gets 8 pitches and time ticks away. OC is livid and mouthing. I just stand on the DT side and grin. I cut the pitcher off a couple pitches short as I knew what was going on.

Sometimes a savvy coach can bend the rules to the point of breaking. Just like was said, rule book on field . Especially in your situation. He could have made a pitching change...and there is really nothing against the rules.

From what I have learned, next inning starts as soon as the 3rd out is made if you have the no inning starts after (X) rule.

Edited May 29, 2010 by txump81

[Rich Ives]

Long story short, NEVER allow a coach to pull out a rule book on the field. Of all the ways to show you up, this is (in my opinion) the worst.

I did it once - the umpire was in the one plus one mode and it was the game-winning run at stake.

Didn't get tossed.

Why?

Any person not that well versed in the rules most likely doesn't know that he should dump you for the rule book bit.

Have a nice day.

p.s. My rule book's usually in my back pocket.

[mstaylor]

That happened to me last yearb in a HS game. The story is in another thread but the manager told his dugout to bring him a rulebook. I told him that wasn't going to end well for him. I told him I was asked an interp by my partner, which I gave him correctly. Protest or go to the coach's box.

[MPLSMatt]

I did it once - the umpire was in the one plus one mode and it was the game-winning run at stake.

Didn't get tossed.

Why?

Any person not that well versed in the rules most likely doesn't know that he should dump you for the rule book bit.

Have a nice day.

p.s. My rule book's usually in my back pocket.

This might be a little ratish, Rich, even with the winning run on the line. :D

[kylejt]

(rule says you cannot start a new inning if 1st batter would not be pitched to by the time limit)

That's an insane rule, as it leads to nonsense like this. In the rest of the world that uses time limit, you look at the time when the third out is made at bottom of the inning. That's when the decision is made.

[Rich Ives]

This might be a little ratish, Rich, even with the winning run on the line.

Well, it did save the whole protest - win it - have-to-come-back just so the runner stuck at third that should have been awarded home could complete the justified award.

[Penguin]

WHOOSH!

WHOOSH!

Didn't chuck him when he took out the local rules - not the OBR or FED book. Umpires have not yet received the updated local rule changes/adaptations. We heard there were a few changes and this was (my) first night with this league.

Didn't chuck him when he started reading because ....1.) I was so surprised that a coach could read. 2.) He is really new, and I think he was doing it as much for his benefit as anything. He really was not trying to show us up - he really didn't know the rule one way or another - which is why the other coach was standing off a ways and not getting into it.

If we thought for a second he was trying to show us up or was deliberately being an a$$ - then he'd have gotten the and the:violin:

[Big Red]

Didn't chuck him when he started reading because ....1.) I was so surprised that a coach could read.

LOL! :censored:

[yawetag]

Didn't chuck him when he took out the local rules - not the OBR or FED book. Umpires have not yet received the updated local rule changes/adaptations. We heard there were a few changes and this was (my) first night with this league.

Then you should have gotten a copy before the game and at least scanned it enough to get an idea of the changes. In my local league, we receive, and take a test on, the new rules every year -- before the season starts.

A bit of a hijack: You essentially stated the coaches had access to the new rules, but the umpires didn't. How does the league expect the umpires to call the game in accordance to their (probably not needed) changes to the rules if the rules were never given to the umpires? If a league is so late in implementing new rules that not even the umpires have a chance to review them before the first game, their board needs to meet more often.

Didn't chuck him when he started reading because ... He is really new, and I think he was doing it as much for his benefit as anything. He really was not trying to show us up - he really didn't know the rule one way or another - which is why the other coach was standing off a ways and not getting into it.

Then he should do it AFTER the game, not during -- and especially not immediately after the play in question. If the coach feels the rule was misapplied according to local rules, then he should protest the game, pay the fee, then look up the rule on his own time (even during the game in the dugout if he wishes). If he later finds he was wrong, redact the protest.

As far as "not trying to show us up," it doesn't matter. Perception is reality. Everyone in the crowd saw him pull out a rule book AND read it to you in the middle of the game. If that's not the appearance of showing you up, I don't know what is.

For argument's sake, let's say the other coach was well-versed in the rules and you knew it. Later in the game, he thinks a rule was mis-applied and walks on the field with the rule book and does the exact same thing. Would you dump him?

I don't care what level of ball, the experience of the coach, or how nice he is doing it -- if a coach pulls a rule book out on the field, he's getting dumped. If (and that's a big if) I didn't do it then, I'm DEFINITELY doing it when he starts reading from it.

[Umpire in Chief]

A bit of a hijack: You essentially stated the coaches had access to the new rules, but the umpires didn't. How does the league expect the umpires to call the game in accordance to their (probably not needed) changes to the rules if the rules were never given to the umpires? If a league is so late in implementing new rules that not even the umpires have a chance to review them before the first game, their board needs to meet more often.

This is how I am with LL rules. We work for a few LL groups but have never been given their rules. Most things are common sense and we default to OBR. But with things like visits I still haven't committed to memory.

[Mike Prince]

This is how I am with LL rules. We work for a few LL groups but have never been given their rules. Most things are common sense and we default to OBR. But with things like visits I still haven't committed to memory.

I have had this issue with some travel ball tournaments I have done, they often do not know which rule set they are following or if they do then they do not know the actual rules. I revert to OBR in this case and if that ruling is different than the rulebook in effect then we discuss. But no way am I letting a coach pull out the rulebook on the field without me asking him to clarify or confirm a rule difference.

[mstaylor]

Warren, you should take the time to learn the visit rules, they are easy but different than any other code. It will save a problem later.

Bikerider, you should always check with the TD or UIC to see what rules you are using and if there are any tournament specific things you need to know. Most use some form of OBR, except AAU, but have mercy rules for different innings, bat size for different ages and other simple but need to know things. Time limits and protest procedures to name two.

[Mike Prince]

Warren, you should take the time to learn the visit rules, they are easy but different than any other code. It will save a problem later.

Bikerider, you should always check with the TD or UIC to see what rules you are using and if there are any tournament specific things you need to know. Most use some form of OBR, except AAU, but have mercy rules for different innings, bat size for different ages and other simple but need to know things. Time limits and protest procedures to name two.

I agree but often these are hahazardly put together and we get called on Friday to work the games the next morning. Usually not the formality of a TD or anything like that. We try to ask in pregame whenever possible and have a discussion with the coaches on key situations before they happen. Typical stuff is run limits, lead off rules/penalties and time limits.

[HokieUmp]

Warren, you should take the time to learn the visit rules, they are easy but different than any other code. It will save a problem later.

Mike,

I'm in the same association as UIC. Here's the thing: Little League treats its rulebook as if they were the Joseph Smith Scrolls O' Gold - only members of the club can see them. Where does one find LL rules, then?

Now that one league has basically broken their contract with us, I can only think of three LL places our association works, and I'm not sure about one, since I haven't been there this year. I go to the local league site, and look for anything they might have, but that's not the same as getting the entire rulebook.

[Rich Ives]

Mike,

Where does one find LL rules, then?

http://www.littleleaguestore.net/equipment---supplies-rules.html

Order away!