Ruling on thrown bat

[Texas]

A player was warned in his 10U select tournament today for throwing his bat after a hit. He tends to fling the bat directly into the ground and it rolls to the fence as he running to first, the bat does not come near the on-deck hitter or catcher. He inadvertantly did it again same place, not near anyone. The ump called him out, which is understandable, but then ejected him from the game, which also means he is not allowed to play in the teams next game.

Does this count as an at bat and if so is it a hit and then out? How is this scored for purposes of calculating batting average?

I have never seen someone ejected for that before, seemed very severe for an accident and completely out of harms way. The kid was the team's SS and leadoff hitter and they ended up losing 7-6 after leading 5-0, with several errors at SS. I don't like when umpires decide games, I know the ump has the descretion to do this, but poor judgement on a 10U game.

[JaxRolo]

I know the ump has the descretion to do this, but poor judgement on a 10U game.

I don't think this is poor judment at all. This age group is where I get the most thrown bat. The kids have to learn. Been hit by too many bats.

Our leagues call for an Out. I wont eject a kid for it.

[HokieUmp]

I have never seen someone ejected for that before, seemed very severe for an accident and completely out of harms way. The kid was the team's SS and leadoff hitter and they ended up losing 7-6 after leading 5-0, with several errors at SS. I don't like when umpires decide games , I know the ump has the descretion to do this, but poor judgement on a 10U game.

Troll.

Actually, Rat Troll.

You may go away now.

[JaxRolo]

I don't like when umpires decide games, I know the ump has the descretion to do this, but poor judgement on a 10U game.

I agree this is not the thing to say on here.

We do decide games by enforcing the correct rules of the game!

Edited April 26, 2010 by JaxRolo

[Guest]

This is always a hotly contested topic in the younger ages.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot simply make up rules. This means you cannot call the batter out for this unless local rules provide for that.

However, I agree with the obvious statement that throwing the bat in this sense is very dangerous.

It's my understanding that the proper procedue to this is to issue a warning on the first offence and eject the player on the second, allowing the team to substitute a pinch runner if he reaches base.

I agree with this - a bit of shock therapy if you will to get the kid to cut it out.

[Texas]

Still looking for an answer on how to correctly score this, is it a hit? How does this go into calculating batting average?

It's not a black and white call. I agree with the umpire calling an out, which is what has always been the case when I have seen this happen before. He was certainly within his rights to make the call he did, but it was too severe in my opinion, both coaches from both teams thought it was too punitive. By being ejected the player was also suspended from playing the following game because of the ejection.

[yawetag]

Still looking for an answer on how to correctly score this, is it a hit? How does this go into calculating batting average?

Texas,

Definitely an AB. Fielder's choice. If the bat hits a defensive player, he's credited with an unassisted put out. If it didn't hit a defensive player, give the put out to F8, with an assist to F2. Any advancement allowed on the play is defensive indifference. If any of the runners on base at the time score, it's unearned for the pitcher.

:rollinglaugh:

[Paperipper17]

Texas,

Definitely an AB. Fielder's choice. If the bat hits a defensive player, he's credited with an unassisted put out. If it didn't hit a defensive player, give the put out to F8, with an assist to F2. Any advancement allowed on the play is defensive indifference. If any of the runners on base at the time score, it's unearned for the pitcher.

and if the bat stands on end, a la Rafael Furcal, home run.

[Paperipper17]

It's not a black and white call. I agree with the umpire calling an out, which is what has always been the case when I have seen this happen before. He was certainly within his rights to make the call he did, but it was too severe in my opinion, both coaches from both teams thought it was too punitive. By being ejected the player was also suspended from playing the following game because of the ejection.

You said the kid had been warned. By definition, a warning precedes an EJ. Regardless of how good the player was, or his role on the team, if the umpire felt that it deserved an EJ, then it did. In some leagues or associations, it isn't up to the umpire at all. After the warning, if it happens again, no matter who it is, he's gone. Thrown bats are dangerous to everyone within range, and if that EJ is what it took to teach him he needs to stop, then it was the right call. I wonder...If it was the 11th batter who played right field every third inning, and the team was better off with him out of it for the next game, would the same question have been raised? :rollinglaugh:

Edited April 26, 2010 by Paperipper17

[Umpire in Chief]

I've never seen an EJ for a thrown bat. I've seen outs. But I'm sure there are some local rules out there which allow it.

As for the scorekeeping I have no idea.

[jjb]

I'm with Warren: I have no idea how to score it: I doubt this 10-year old is in his contract year, so his BA doesn't make a lot of difference.

I think this is just another episode of arguing umpire decisions: If we don't enforce it, somebody yells 'Hey, it's a Rule!. If we DO enforce it, they yell "That's poor judgement".

Maybe the coach should work on the kid's bat-handling skills, and not worry so much about his on-base percentage...

[HokieUmp]

I've never seen an EJ for a thrown bat. I've seen outs. But I'm sure there are some local rules out there which allow it.

Since we're going to answer it, I've gotten a kid for it. My first year in Hampton Roads. (Bronco division, maybe??) First AB, bat doinks off F2's shin-guards. Warning issued to coach. Second AB, skips it to the backstop. Tell the coach again, "he needs to keep control of that bat."

Third AB, same thing again. Once he hit first, and play was settled, I called time, and restricted him to the bench.** DCs: "Can we get an out?" Me: "Did you throw him out at first? Then, no."

**Yeah, yeah, I know: restricted to the bench is a FED thing, and you're probably not supposed to restrict THERE all that much. So I ended up making up. But essentially it was an EJ, and probably should have been done sooner.

My EJ rationales were a) failure to comply with an umpire's direction, and safety from a flying d@mn bat.

So it has happened in our association, thanks to me. Should I have done it? I don't know. I didn't lose sleep over it, since this was the third time the kid flung the bat around after hitting the ball, and I didn't want someone getting skulled with the thing.

Back to the OP: you were addressed as Rat Troll, since blaming the umpire for five errors is a classic Rat maneuver. It's the umpires fault a kid can't hit without just flinging the bat around afterwards? (If he's leadoff, then he's probably a good hitter, so it's more he's too lazy to play the game right.) And, what, there's no one else on this team that can field a ball? Just another fine example of a p1ss-weak coach blaming an umpire for his inability to teach the game.

Also, when would you suggest this discretion be used? Are the stakes really that high in the 10U world?

[Paperipper17]

Back to the OP: you were addressed as Rat Troll, since blaming the umpire for five errors is a classic Rat maneuver. It's the umpires fault a kid can't hit without just flinging the bat around afterwards? (If he's leadoff, then he's probably a good hitter, so it's more he's too lazy to play the game right.) And, what, there's no one else on this team that can field a ball? Just another fine example of a p1ss-weak coach blaming an umpire for his inability to teach the game.

Also, when would you suggest this discretion be used? Are the stakes really that high in the 10U world?

Exactly. And of course the stakes are that high. HC didn't get his trophy to put on his desk because the ump was being a power-abusing bully. :rollinglaugh:

[jjb]

FWIW, our local league rule gives the umpire the discretion of warning, calling the BR out, or ejecting. It gives us a lot of latitude in deciding, based on severity of the toss/history of the kid (ie, warnings), and whether or not it's me that gets whacked.

And I really give a rat's ass on the suspension: maybe he'll finally learn to hang onto it.

[MickeyMouseUmp]

If no contact, will usually warn the coach on first act in a game.

2nd incident and it is time to protect everyone else, I give the batter an Out.

If the batters are trying not to throw the bat then I try not to see it.

3rd incident and obviously no one is catching on, so its EJ time.

To me, it does not matter which batter is responsible as throwing bats is the single most dangerous and abused rule in playing the game. Try telling the parent of the kid that gets a broken bone when hit by bat that, the other boy needs to increase on base percentage or recorded hits....then stand back and watch the fire works.

If you really must score it give the batter his hit.

Edited April 26, 2010 by MickeyMouseUmp

[Guest]

To those of you who say to call this an out - what rule are you invoking here? Cite it.

[DirtyDawg]

Most of the times it is just a local league rule.

[moblue]

I'll bet the next game the kid plays (and for a good while after that) he makes sure to not throw the bat.

[jjb]

We've got a local Rec Rule here, 24....

in case you're interested:

The batter is responsible for ensuring that he releases his bat in a safe manner after swinging. If, in the umpire’s judgment, the batter releases his bat in a reckless or dangerous manner or it makes contact with a player, spectator or umpire, the batter may be warned, called out, and/or ejected, at the discretion of the umpire. In the event that the batter is called out, the ball is dead and no runners may advance or score.

It gives us a ton of leeway here, as it doesn't have to be in order (warning/out/EJ): we can toss on the first offense, or warn forever (not recommended, but we're allowed to).

[moblue]

I have called an out before. I haven't ejected over it yet, but I support anyone that does. If I remember correctly, don't the rules call for an ejection for thrown equipment?

[yawetag]

I've never seen an EJ for a thrown bat. I've seen outs. But I'm sure there are some local rules out there which allow it.

Fed 3-3-1c: A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not: carelessly throw a bat

PENALTY: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected.

[mstaylor]

I have only read the first page of the thread but unless there is a tournament rule for an out to be called the usual procedure is is to warn and eject. If the tournament calls for an out, I would want to see that in writing, then give the putout tho the catcher. LL says to NEVER use an out on a safety rule.

In this case it sounds like there is nothing dangerous being done. He has to put the bat somewhere and as long as he isn't throwing it at fielders, ondeck batters or umpires I would tend to let it go. If he is throwing in anger then get rid of him, no warning. If he is being dangerour or reckless then warn and eject.

As far as who he is, as an umpire I could care less who gets tossed. As a coach I would be more worried that my stud can't control himself and is if danger of getting tossed every AB.

[softballcoach]

To those of you who say to call this an out - what rule are you invoking here? Cite it.

Your answer is 42, it's always 42. :Cool2:

[Paperipper17]

Your answer is 42, it's always 42.

Hitchhiker's Guide. Well done. :rollinglaugh:

[Guest]

Hitchhiker's Guide. Well done.

Indeed, well played sir.

The point I am getting at here is that you can't simply make up a rule. Unless there is a rule saying it is an "out" for this, you can't ring up the batter.