Balk ...

[mazzamouth]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

because balks are one of the hardest things for Umpires to call, and can get us into trouble fast, so umpires are scared to call them.

[Jimurray]

The slow ( comparatively) hand separation with a step off is probably designed to catch a runner and should be balked. But tonite the same move but done much faster in the MIL ARZ game was not and should not be balked. Most of the time the hand and foot move quickly at the same time and are not balked.

[zm1283]

And to answer your accusation, I don't call a "ball" every time a pitcher goes to his mouth in the circle, and as long as they wipe, I say nothing. I don't call a balk when a pitcher takes more than 20 seconds to deliver the ball, and I don't worry about the back lines of the box either. I usually get them rubbed out myself by the end of the first inning.

Tim.

I hope you don't ever call a ball if a pitcher goes to his mouth in the dirt and then wipes, because it isn't illegal at any level.

I also hope you don't call a balk when the pitcher takes more than 20 seconds (12 in OBR), because it isn't a balk since the bases are unoccupied.

Don't worry about the back lines of the box? As in you don't care if batters take their stance outside the back of the box? Why would you rub them out yourself?

[mstaylor]

I am an Orioles fan so I don't have a dog in the hunt and that is a balk. 12 and unders will get the benefit of the doubt on technical balks but I will talk to the manager about it. At 13 they get called, they need to learn the proper way to pitch and that includes not balking.

Balk warnings, the bane of my existance. That is one of the dumbest, most counterproductive local rule ever invented, there are others but this is a top ten. What possible good does warning a kid about a balk do, NOTHING! He blows through a stop and you warn him. Then he feints to first and you balk him. The the devil does one have to do with the other? The other choice is to warn all 16 types of balks to each pitcher, that will speed games up. Move some runners and pitchers figure it out real quick. I know the umpires don't make thesestupid rules but it is something to be fought.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Okay so now my question would be "what other rules to you bend or ignore?" / I hear this type of logic from time to time and I just don't buy it... "it's early in the year"... you should not call that_________ / really? or these kids are so young you gotta let that go.... really? Just my opinion... but if the rules were enforced at an early age... when the players are older they would get it and so would the coaches. It does not take long for the players and coaches to see what kind of an umpire you are and they will play the game right .... yup all ages 14 and up. Good example is the "Foot in the box Rule" most guys ignore but I don't so you got it when I have the dish the players abide with the rule...

This is not about picking and choosing among all rules, it's about ignoring ticky-tack balks. That was not deceptive and barely a balk. His timing was slightly off in his movements. If a high school, or even a JC kid did it just like that---especially with a runner at third---I would not balk him.

Now, in most other rule cases, including staying in the box, I will definitely enforce it. Key word: most.

Let me ask you this one: A pitcher takes the mound with a black glove that has tan laces. What do you do?

[mstaylor]

Let him play, nothing illegal.

[Mr Umpire]

I am an Orioles fan so I don't have a dog in the hunt and that is a balk. 12 and unders will get the benefit of the doubt on technical balks but I will talk to the manager about it. At 13 they get called, they need to learn the proper way to pitch and that includes not balking.

Balk warnings, the bane of my existance. That is one of the dumbest, most counterproductive local rule ever invented, there are others but this is a top ten. What possible good does warning a kid about a balk do, NOTHING! He blows through a stop and you warn him. Then he feints to first and you balk him. The the devil does one have to do with the other? The other choice is to warn all 16 types of balks to each pitcher, that will speed games up. Move some runners and pitchers figure it out real quick. I know the umpires don't make thesestupid rules but it is something to be fought.

Not a good argument against the warnings. Here is why. He blows through a stop. Move the runner while waiting on that runner to go. He feints to 1B. Where is the correlation? Wait for the runner to go. More time may be wasted to move the runner than to just tell him what he did and move on. I don't like the warning but there are better arguments against it than that.

Here is where it is foolish. Tie game in the bottom of the last inning. R3, 2 outs, 0-2 count. F1 blows through the stop for the first time of the game. Maybe, hoping to get away with it. He throws the pitch for a ball or a HBP. Should be game over but it isn't since he gets a warning. Next pitch, he strikes the batter out. What is learned there? Nothing. That is where the local rule falls short.

[BigUmp56]

I hope you don't ever call a ball if a pitcher goes to his mouth in the dirt and then wipes, because it isn't illegal at any level.

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball .However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president

I also hope you don't call a balk when the pitcher takes more than 20 seconds (12 in OBR), because it isn't a balk since the bases are unoccupied.

20 seconds is a number I've heard OOO use for years in defining "unnecessarily."

8.05(h) If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when the pitcher unnecessarily delays thegame.

Don't worry about the back lines of the box? As in you don't care if batters take their stance outside the back of the box? Why would you rub them out yourself?

As in, I don't care if a batter wants to have his back foot off of the back line of the batter's box. Unless he's trying to get a running start to hit the pitch, or set up way inside to draw a HBP, why do you care? Oh, it's the rules "purity thing in you. Rubbing them out myself is a technique that was taught to me years ago by an umpire I very much respect. Quite a few of the guys I work with do the same.

Tim.

[noumpere]

Im pretty sure both those rules have changed and its almost impossible for a pitcher to take 20 seconds to deliver a pitch. Thats also a rule in college and we have the stop watch and Id only get above 10 seconds once a game or so and never got to 20 seconds. Even the new rule of 12 seconds would seem like a long time.

[Thunderheads]

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball .However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president

Tim, ... I believe last year this was revised to include .... basically, .."provided he wipes his hands off"

[BigUmp56]

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball .However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president

Tim, ... I believe last year this was revised to include .... basically, .."provided he wipes his hands off"

I looked in the most recent rule book, and you're right, it has changed. My apologies. What they've done is basically incorporate language from Evans "Customs and Usage". It's still a violation, the added language clarifies that they need to wipe AFTER the violation has been called. But we all know that as long as they wipe, it's never been called.

Tim.

[Umpy]

Don't worry about the back lines of the box? As in you don't care if batters take their stance outside the back of the box? Why would you rub them out yourself?

As in, I don't care if a batter wants to have his back foot off of the back line of the batter's box. Unless he's trying to get a running start to hit the pitch, or set up way inside to draw a HBP, why do you care? Oh, it's the rules "purity thing in you. Rubbing them out myself is a technique that was taught to me years ago by an umpire I very much respect. Quite a few of the guys I work with do the same.

Tim.

If I had a batter that could hit a ball while running at it I'd be tempted to allow him outside the back of the batter's box just to see it.

[mstaylor]

Not a good argument against the warnings. Here is why. He blows through a stop. Move the runner while waiting on that runner to go. He feints to 1B. Where is the correlation? Wait for the runner to go. More time may be wasted to move the runner than to just tell him what he did and move on. I don't like the warning but there are better arguments against it than that.

Here is where it is foolish. Tie game in the bottom of the last inning. R3, 2 outs, 0-2 count. F1 blows through the stop for the first time of the game. Maybe, hoping to get away with it. He throws the pitch for a ball or a HBP. Should be game over but it isn't since he gets a warning. Next pitch, he strikes the batter out. What is learned there? Nothing. That is where the local rule falls short.

I don't care about time, it is a matter of teaching the pitcher the correct way so call the balk. If you warn it, you have to explain it so time really isn't an issue. It sounds like you warn every type of balk for every pitcher. That takes a stupid rule and escalates it to catastrophic disaster. When I was UIC of leagues I told them my crews would not warn.

Your end of game example is precisely why I won't do it. Coaches learn they get a freebie and have now used it to gain an advantage by screwing up. It just proves that local rules are made by fools.

One league I worked used to warn for two weeks, then call them. I did that for a while then refused that. Another used to warn all year. I was working their city championship and at the plate meeting they said they were using allstar pitching rules. Naturally the pitcher balks, we call it and advance the runners. The manager comes out and wans to know where the warning was. I told him allstar pitching rules means no warnings. The PU started to cave and I dug my heels and said absolutely not. They brought the president in to make a ruling. He says they get a warning. I told him no way, you can't use allstar rules, mostly. You use allstar rules or regular season rules. He agreed finally and the manager was mad. From that day forward I have refused to warn.

I managed my son for two years at Pony. They wanted to warn on opening day, I questioned it. The president didn't want to mar the day. I grudingly agreed and reminded him of my objection to the concept. Then the other managers wanted to expand to at least two weeks if not all season. I said no way, no how. My exact quote was,"It's a deal breaker." They asked what I meant. The president said that I was saying either opening day only or I was saying I was leaving. They were dumbfounded that I was that adamant about warnings. I explained all the ramifications including a senario similar to yours above. How useless and counterproductive it was. They didn't llike it but went along. I also instructed the umpires that if my guys balked, call it. I taught them the proper way to pitch and if they balk then they aren't doing what I taught them.

[Mr Umpire]

No, I don't warn every type of balk. Each team gets 1 warning for some of the leagues but it goes for the whole team. I don't like it b/c it leads to bigger problems.

[noumpere]

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball .However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president

Tim, ... I believe last year this was revised to include .... basically, .."provided he wipes his hands off"

I looked in the most recent rule book, and you're right, it has changed. My apologies. What they've done is basically incorporate language from Evans "Customs and Usage". It's still a violation, the added language clarifies that they need to wipe AFTER the violation has been called. But we all know that as long as they wipe, it's never been called.

Tim.

The rule was changed. It used to say "go to the mouth in the dirt cirle is an immediate violation". Now it says "go to the mouth ON THE RUBBER is an immediate violation, or got to the mouth in the circle AND DONT WIPE is a violation."

The actual wording is different I am sure but thats the jist of it.

[BigUmp56]

The rule was changed. It used to say "go to the mouth in the dirt cirle is an immediate violation". Now it says "go to the mouth ON THE RUBBER is an immediate violation, or got to the mouth in the circle AND DONT WIPE is a violation."

The actual wording is different I am sure but thats the jist of it.

8.02

The pitcher shall not—

(a) (1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s plate, touch the ball after

touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact

with the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his

pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher’s plate.

EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to

the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on

his hand.

PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call

a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an

error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at

least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeat

offenders shall be subject to a fine by the League President.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

[zm1283]

As in, I don't care if a batter wants to have his back foot off of the back line of the batter's box. Unless he's trying to get a running start to hit the pitch, or set up way inside to draw a HBP, why do you care? Oh, it's the rules "purity thing in you. Rubbing them out myself is a technique that was taught to me years ago by an umpire I very much respect. Quite a few of the guys I work with do the same.

Tim.

So what? What is wrong with enforcing the rules as written? Why should the batter get another 4-6 inches out the back of the box? Why would you erase the lines that are there to help you in the first place? A lot of "well respected" umpires have things like this that they do, very few of which make much sense. Just enforce the rules consistently and you won't have many problems.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

It's not a violation if there is no penalty for it, so you're still grasping at straws. Where does any rule book say anything about an "immediate violation"? Please reference that for me. If he goes to his mouth and then goes to the rubber or to the ball without wiping, there has been a violation so enforce the penalty. If he goes to his mouth, wipes, then touches the ball, it is nothing. No more a violation than adjusting his nuts between pitches.

Furthermore, it's not up to us what we should have ever called or what should have been a warning. I follow the rules that are written, not the ones I think should exist.

You were wrong and got called on it. Just own it and move on.

[BigUmp56]

As in, I don't care if a batter wants to have his back foot off of the back line of the batter's box. Unless he's trying to get a running start to hit the pitch, or set up way inside to draw a HBP, why do you care? Oh, it's the rules "purity thing in you. Rubbing them out myself is a technique that was taught to me years ago by an umpire I very much respect. Quite a few of the guys I work with do the same.

Tim.

So what? What is wrong with enforcing the rules as written? Why should the batter get another 4-6 inches out the back of the box? Why would you erase the lines that are there to help you in the first place? A lot of "well respected" umpires have things like this that they do, very few of which make much sense. Just enforce the rules consistently and you won't have many problems.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

It's not a violation if there is no penalty for it, so you're still grasping at straws. Where does any rule book say anything about an "immediate violation"? Please reference that for me. If he goes to his mouth and then goes to the rubber or to the ball without wiping, there has been a violation so enforce the penalty. If he goes to his mouth, wipes, then touches the ball, it is nothing. No more a violation than adjusting his nuts between pitches.

Furthermore, it's not up to us what we should have ever called or what should have been a warning. I follow the rules that are written, not the ones I think should exist.

You were wrong and got called on it. Just own it and move on.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you. I think you're inexperienced and haven't figured a few things out yet. That's alright though, as I was once arguing as a rules "purist" just as you are now and arguing the same points. Now, after a year or two of officiating this game, I know better. You're wrong about it not being a violation, and you're wrong about when to apply the penaly (which is pretty much never for experienced umpires, unless he does it repeatedly). I'll say it again. All that's been changed is they've incorprated a provision into the rule that a pitcher must wipe after the violation.

There might come a time in your career that you'll learn to rule with the book and not by the book. Good luck moving up until you figure it out.

Tim.

[noumpere]

8.02

The pitcher shall not—

(a) (1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s plate, touch the ball after

touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact

with the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his

pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher’s plate.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

Your reading either the old rule or the new rule wrong.

The new rule is above. Heres the old rule:

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber.

Note that the old rule says "go to the mouth while on the dirt." period. Nothing else. So that was an immediate violation.

The new rule says "while on the dirt, go to the mouth and then the ball" So this is now a violation only for not wiping.

The new rule also adds "or go to the mouth while on the rubber". This is an immediate violation. This particular part is about the same as the old rule but the location has chaged from the dirt to the rubber, and it now matches the colelge rule.

All of this is what I have said before. I dont know where you get the warning stuff, or the stuff about wiping under the prior rule (if the pitcher went to his mouth while on the dirt).

[mazzamouth]

The rule was changed. It used to say "go to the mouth in the dirt cirle is an immediate violation". Now it says "go to the mouth ON THE RUBBER is an immediate violation, or got to the mouth in the circle AND DONT WIPE is a violation."

The actual wording is different I am sure but thats the jist of it.

8.02

The pitcher shall not—

(a) (1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s plate, touch the ball after

touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact

with the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his

pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher’s plate.

EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to

the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on

his hand.

PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call

a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an

error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at

least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeat

offenders shall be subject to a fine by the League President.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

Remember he can now go to his mouth ANYWHERE in the dirt, just not touching the rubber....

[zm1283]

As in, I don't care if a batter wants to have his back foot off of the back line of the batter's box. Unless he's trying to get a running start to hit the pitch, or set up way inside to draw a HBP, why do you care? Oh, it's the rules "purity thing in you. Rubbing them out myself is a technique that was taught to me years ago by an umpire I very much respect. Quite a few of the guys I work with do the same.

Tim.

So what? What is wrong with enforcing the rules as written? Why should the batter get another 4-6 inches out the back of the box? Why would you erase the lines that are there to help you in the first place? A lot of "well respected" umpires have things like this that they do, very few of which make much sense. Just enforce the rules consistently and you won't have many problems.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

It's not a violation if there is no penalty for it, so you're still grasping at straws. Where does any rule book say anything about an "immediate violation"? Please reference that for me. If he goes to his mouth and then goes to the rubber or to the ball without wiping, there has been a violation so enforce the penalty. If he goes to his mouth, wipes, then touches the ball, it is nothing. No more a violation than adjusting his nuts between pitches.

Furthermore, it's not up to us what we should have ever called or what should have been a warning. I follow the rules that are written, not the ones I think should exist.

You were wrong and got called on it. Just own it and move on.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you. I think you're inexperienced and haven't figured a few things out yet. That's alright though, as I was once arguing as a rules "purist" just as you are now and arguing the same points. Now, after a year or two of officiating this game, I know better. You're wrong about it not being a violation, and you're wrong about when to apply the penaly (which is pretty much never for experienced umpires, unless he does it repeatedly). I'll say it again. All that's been changed is they've incorprated a provision into the rule that a pitcher must wipe after the violation.

There might come a time in your career that you'll learn to rule with the book and not by the book. Good luck moving up until you figure it out.

Tim.

You're not going to continue to argue because you know you got a couple of rules wrong and got called on it, so you're now trying to save face because of it. You came on here guns a' blazing and you can't stand it that someone might know something that you don't.

I'm not a "purist" like you want to paint me. I just think that bending rules to make your life easier only gets you and other umpires in hot water later on. This is one gripe I hear from coach friends: "Why did umpire A do it one way and umpire B told us something different and did it a different way?"

So once again, please show me where it's a violation to go to the mouth and then wipe before engaging the rubber or touching the ball. You can say I am wrong all you want, but until you provide that pesky rule reference, you're the one making stuff up.

Furthermore, it's hilarious that you say "which is pretty much never for experienced umpires", as if "experienced" umpires like yourself can do things differently from everyone else.

I've moved up quickly enough, and would put my work up against your "experience" any day. I'm not going to sit here and toot my horn, but I promise I could hold my own against you.

[zm1283]

8.02

The pitcher shall not—

(a) (1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s plate, touch the ball after

touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact

with the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his

pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher’s plate.

It's still a violation if he does it anywhere in the dirt circle. And it's an immediate violation if the pitcher goes to the mouth and then to the ball without wiping. What the rule has clarified is that AFTER the violation, the pitcher has to wipe before he's allowed to touch the ball again.

It's not something we should have called EVER as long as the pitcher wiped before he went to the ball, and it should have been a warning only if it happened.

Tim.

Your reading either the old rule or the new rule wrong.

The new rule is above. Heres the old rule:

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber.

Note that the old rule says "go to the mouth while on the dirt." period. Nothing else. So that was an immediate violation.

The new rule says "while on the dirt, go to the mouth and then the ball" So this is now a violation only for not wiping.

The new rule also adds "or go to the mouth while on the rubber". This is an immediate violation. This particular part is about the same as the old rule but the location has chaged from the dirt to the rubber, and it now matches the colelge rule.

All of this is what I have said before. I dont know where you get the warning stuff, or the stuff about wiping under the prior rule (if the pitcher went to his mouth while on the dirt).

He can't figure out that there is only a violation when F1 goes to his mouth and then doesn't wipe. Just going to your mouth is NOTHING until you don't wipe and then touch the ball or rubber. For it to be a violation, you would think there is a penalty. Tim, what is the penalty for going to your mouth before you wipe while on the dirt?

[mazzamouth]

Hey Big Ump... I am just asking, what level of ball do you work? and where at?

[BigUmp56]

Your reading either the old rule or the new rule wrong.

The new rule is above. Heres the old rule:

8.02 (a)(1) The pitcher shall not bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber.

Note that the old rule says "go to the mouth while on the dirt." period. Nothing else. So that was an immediate violation.

The new rule says "while on the dirt, go to the mouth and then the ball" So this is now a violation only for not wiping.

The new rule also adds "or go to the mouth while on the rubber". This is an immediate violation. This particular part is about the same as the old rule but the location has chaged from the dirt to the rubber, and it now matches the colelge rule.

All of this is what I have said before. I dont know where you get the warning stuff, or the stuff about wiping under the prior rule (if the pitcher went to his mouth while on the dirt).

The light just came on, thank you. I've had my head stuck so far up my a$$ on this one it's amazing that I can see my keyboard to type. I still maintain that awardng an immediate ball under the old rule was something we should enforce. I've been convinced of this since reading Carl Childress' "51 Ways to Ruin a Baseball Game." I fully realize that under the old rule there was no provision to let it go if the pitcher wiped, but I always have, as have most of the men I work with.

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

You're not going to continue to argue because you know you got a couple of rules wrong and got called on it, so you're now trying to save face because of it. You came on here guns a' blazing and you can't stand it that someone might know something that you don't.

I'm not a "purist" like you want to paint me. I just think that bending rules to make your life easier only gets you and other umpires in hot water later on. This is one gripe I hear from coach friends: "Why did umpire A do it one way and umpire B told us something different and did it a different way?"

So once again, please show me where it's a violation to go to the mouth and then wipe before engaging the rubber or touching the ball. You can say I am wrong all you want, but until you provide that pesky rule reference, you're the one making stuff up.

Furthermore, it's hilarious that you say "which is pretty much never for experienced umpires", as if "experienced" umpires like yourself can do things differently from everyone else.

I've moved up quickly enough, and would put my work up against your "experience" any day. I'm not going to sit here and toot my horn, but I promise I could hold my own against you.

I owe you a huge apology. This wasn't a case of me getting called on not knowing a rule and refusing to own it. This was a case of me being a dipstick and not knowing the rule change, and then not being able objectively listen to what you were trying to tell me.

If you get a chance, see if you can find the article by Carl Childress that I was talking about. It's titled "51 Ways to Ruin a Baseball Game." It's an interesting read about some game management techniques he suggests using in amature games.

Tim.