Hidden ball trick...Fail.

[Paperipper17]

12U game, top 4, I'm PU. F1 is laboring, but has already picked off two runners at third and had two easy picks dropped at first. He walks a batter, giving us R1 and R2 with one out. Coach comes out to talk. I grant time, brush the plate, zero out my indicator, and signal IFF with my partner. Coach leaves. Pitcher is over, but not on, the rubber, and looking in. I point and say "Play," and get ready to drop into my stance. Suddenly, there's a commotion at first. Apparently, Coach thought this was a great time to pull the ol' hidden ball trick. No signal from my partner yet as to out or safe, and I call time and sprint out.

Partner: "Did you put it in play?"

Me: "Yep. Did he throw it and I missed it or did they pull hidden ball?"

Partner: "Hidden ball."

Me: "Ok. (Loud) That's a BALK!" and award the runners.

Here comes coach. "What happened? He was out! You can't just call time and decide it was a balk!"

"Coach, I thought it was right away but I wanted to be sure. That's why I went to ask him if the pitcher had the ball. When he said he didn't, that's when I called it."

"But he wasn't on the rubber!"

"He doesn't have to be. He was straddling the rubber and looking in without the ball. If he is within five feet of the rubber without the ball, that's a balk. If he's simulating any pitching-related activity-like the stretch position-without the ball, it's a balk."

We go on in this vein for awhile, him insisting the kid wasn't on the rubber, me explaining he didn't have to be. Then he gave my favorite line of the night. "You can't call time and go ask him for help! You have to wait for a coach to do that!"

Right. "Coach, that's why there's two of us. I can ask him for help on any play I need help on. Look at it this way. I can ask him for help on a check swing, he can ask me for help on a swipe tag or a pulled foot."

"But you have to wait for the coach to ask him that!"

I killed the conversation and walked away shaking my head.

Here's the kicker: Between inning, the coach that arrived in the second inning walks up to me. I thought he was an AC. Nope. "Blue, that :censored:hole gives you any more , dump him. He's my assistant.

I told him ok, but if I'd known he was only an AC, he'd have been gone already for leaving the dugout to argue a call. He told me he was surprised I hadn't anyway.

Apparently, I found out after the game, all the muttering in the stands during this debacle wasn't ump-bashing...It was parents genuinely embarrassed at his behavior and hoping one of us would toss him. Pays to have a spy in the seats

So. did I interpret rule 6.2.5 correctly here? And should I have dumped this rat when he didn't go away after the third time I explained it to him?

Edited April 23, 2010 by Paperipper17

[semper_fi_72]

12U game, top 4, I'm PU. F1 is laboring, but has already picked off two runners at third and had two easy picks dropped at first. He walks a batter, giving us R1 and R2 with one out. Coach comes out to talk. I grant time, brush the plate, zero out my indicator, and signal IFF with my partner. Coach leaves. Pitcher is over, but not on, the rubber, and looking in. I point and say "Play," and get ready to drop into my stance. Suddenly, there's a commotion at first. Apparently, Coach thought this was a great time to pull the ol' hidden ball trick. No signal from my partner yet as to out or safe, and I call time and sprint out.

Partner: "Did you put it in play?"

Me: "Yep. Did he throw it and I missed it or did they pull hidden ball?"

Partner: "Hidden ball."

Me: "Ok. (Loud) That's a BALK!" and award the runners.

Here comes coach. "What happened? He was out! You can't just call time and decide it was a balk!"

"Coach, I thought it was right away but I wanted to be sure. That's why I went to ask him if the pitcher had the ball. When he said he didn't, that's when I called it."

"But he wasn't on the rubber!"

"He doesn't have to be. He was straddling the rubber and looking in without the ball. If he is within five feet of the rubber without the ball, that's a balk. If he's simulating any pitching-related activity-like the stretch position-without the ball, it's a balk."

We go on in this vein for awhile, him insisting the kid wasn't on the rubber, me explaining he didn't have to be. Then he gave my favorite line of the night. "You can't call time and go ask him for help! You have to wait for a coach to do that!"

Right. "Coach, that's why there's two of us. I can ask him for help on any play I need help on. Look at it this way. I can ask him for help on a check swing, he can ask me for help on a swipe tag or a pulled foot."

"But you have to wait for the coach to ask him that!"

I killed the conversation and walked away shaking my head.

Here's the kicker: Between inning, the coach that arrived in the second inning walks up to me. I thought he was an AC. Nope. "Blue, that :censored:hole gives you any more , dump him. He's my assistant.

I told him ok, but if I'd known he was only an AC, he'd have been gone already for leaving the dugout to argue a call. He told me he was surprised I hadn't anyway.

Apparently, I found out after the game, all the muttering in the stands during this debacle wasn't ump-bashing...It was parents genuinely embarrassed at his behavior and hoping one of us would toss him. Pays to have a spy in the seats

So. did I interpret rule 6.2.5 correctly here? And should I have dumped this rat when he didn't go away after the third time I explained it to him?

Only one problem.....You can not put the ball back into play unless the pitcher has the ball. The pitcher also must be in contact with the rubber for you to put the ball back into play. Since neither of these circumstances were meet, you screwed the pooch. Ball was not legally put back into play. Since ball was not legally put back into play, I have nothing, including no balk.

Keep your eye on the ball and know where it is at all times.

Sorry but you had a big thing over nothing and it all started with a error you made.

[Paperipper17]

Only one problem.....You can not put the ball back into play unless the pitcher has the ball. The pitcher also must be in contact with the rubber for you to put the ball back into play. Since neither of these circumstances were meet, you screwed the pooch. Ball was not legally put back into play. Since ball was not legally put back into play, I have nothing, including no balk.

Keep your eye on the ball and know where it is at all times.

Sorry but you had a big thing over nothing and it all started with a error you made.

:bang:I did not know that. Found it, rule 5.1.4. Now that I think about it, I should have been on top of that. to me on that one.

[JaxRolo]

Don't feel bad Ripper I don't know how many umps would have got that one right. Including myself. I think I would have made the same call.

Looks like the BU and the coach didn't know either.

I am glad you posted the situation. Now I know we will get it right next time.

[mstaylor]

Semper fi is correct but it is a common mistake. I actually saw an instructor teach in a clinic that it didn't matter if the pitcher was on the rubber or not when you put the ball in play. I quickly dispelled that rumor. The pitcher has to have the ball and be on the rubber for the ball to be legally put in play. The hidden ball play off a mound visit is hard to follow but never legal.

If you weren't aware he was an asst then don't worry about not dumping him for that. Once you gave the explaination that you felt was what he needed then tell him it is time to play and walk away. If he follows then get rid of him.

[yawetag]

Here's the kicker: Between inning, the coach that arrived in the second inning walks up to me. I thought he was an AC. Nope. "Blue, that :censored:hole gives you any more , dump him. He's my assistant.

I told him ok, but if I'd known he was only an AC, he'd have been gone already for leaving the dugout to argue a call. He told me he was surprised I hadn't anyway.

How did you not know he was the AC? Who was at the plate for the plate meeting?

[Umpire in Chief]

:bang:I did not know that. Found it, rule 5.1.4. Now that I think about it, I should have been on top of that. to me on that one.

Not a problem live and learn.

I had a team try the hidden ball trick when there was time once. I saw F6 had the ball. Pitcher comes up to the mound. Everybody is waiting for me to put the ball in play. We waited a few seconds as I was hoping they would realize I wasn't putting the ball in play and would give up. So I waited a little while and said, "Shortstop, the pitcher needs the ball before I can put it in play." Half the crowd was laughing, the other half was ticked at me.

[semper_fi_72]

:bang:I did not know that. Found it, rule 5.1.4. Now that I think about it, I should have been on top of that. to me on that one.

We all make a mistake now and then.

Hopefully we do not repeat the same one and we learn from them. :BD:

[Paperipper17]

How did you not know he was the AC? Who was at the plate for the plate meeting?

He hadn't arrived until the second inning. The AC was at the plate meeting.

Not a problem live and learn.

I had a team try the hidden ball trick when there was time once. I saw F6 had the ball. Pitcher comes up to the mound. Everybody is waiting for me to put the ball in play. We waited a few seconds as I was hoping they would realize I wasn't putting the ball in play and would give up. So I waited a little while and said, "Shortstop, the pitcher needs the ball before I can put it in play." Half the crowd was laughing, the other half was ticked at me.

To be honest, it fooled me. They all huddled up, and when they broke, F1 went right to the rubber. I wish I'd noticed the exchange, but it must have happened while I was brushing the plate.

[Umpire in Chief]

Oh you can't always catch it. I've also been completely fooled by the hidden ball trick. I had it done at a live ball. I was the BU in the C and still don't know how F6 got the ball, but I hear, "I've got him, he's out!" behind me and turn to see the SS's glove on the runner and him not on the bag. I asked him to show me the ball because I swore F1 had it and he did.

[semper_fi_72]

He hadn't arrived until the second inning. The AC was at the plate meeting.

If the AC attended the plate meeting and the HC was not there, then the AC that attended the plate meeting is the HC for the game. Only one I am talking to after the plate meeting.

[dleavitt39]

When I was still playing 4 years ago, I pulled this play. I'm F1, 2 attempted pick offs, F6 walked up to me, faked putting the ball in my glove. I started to walk towards mound, circled it at about 8 feet, acted as if I was cleaning out my glove, R2 wandered off the bag, my F6 tagged him and we got the out. Opposing coach got so enraged, he pulled his team off the field, accusing us of being bush league

Great play, ump said he had nothing as I wasn't simulating a pitch.

And since the coach pulled his team off it won us the game

DL

[UmpJM]

If the AC attended the plate meeting and the HC was not there, then the AC that attended the plate meeting is the HC for the game. Only one I am talking to after the plate meeting.

semper_fi,

That is not correct.

See 3.2.4A

JM

[DirtyDawg]

I remember the hidding ball trick. I used to pull it all the time in little league up to JV ball. Man did I make quite a few people look stupid.

[yawetag]

I had a coach try it during my first Varsity game this year. I didn't realize where the ball was, but I heard the coach yell to the pitcher "Walk around the mound!" I saw what was happening. It didn't work.

[semper_fi_72]

semper_fi,

That is not correct.

See 3.2.4A

JM

Rule 3 Section 2 Art 4

Does not have a A.

Head coach must attend the pregame conference. If available.

PENALTY: The head coach will be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game, except......

If he was not at the field to attend the plate meeting and this was not pointed out by the AC at the plate meeting, as far as I am concerned he is HC.

If it was pointed out and I was not notified when HC showed up, still a problem.

HC is restricted to dugout, when he shows up and can not come out to talk to me anyway, oppps EJ. :censored:

[mstaylor]

If he isn't there at gametime then you can't restrict him. The AC should be smart enough to tell you he is on his way. if you are not informed then you have assume the guy at the plate meeting is the HC.

[yawetag]

Rule 3 Section 2 Art 4

Does not have a A.

semper,

UmpJM was referring to the Case Book. Have a look there. It says that if the HC is running late, he is allowed to take over the duties when he arrives.

[mstaylor]

semper,

UmpJM was referring to the Case Book. Have a look there. It says that if the HC is running late, he is allowed to take over the duties when he arrives.

For everyones general information, when quoting rules use dashs, casebook us periods. John did that but it isn't always generally known.

[Umpire in Chief]

For everyones general information, when quoting rules use dashs, casebook us periods. John did that but it isn't always generally known.

I did not know that.

[kcfan102]

I had a case very similar to this last weekend. The defense had a little pow-wow on the field. Time was never called. I'm lookin' in at F1 who always put the ball in his throwing hand, it wasn't there. That tipped me off and I looked over at R3. This kid was dead meat at third. I look back and there is the pitcher, straddling and all.

BOOYEAH! Score one for the offense.

Didn't hear a peep out of anybody.

[noumpere]

For everyones general information, when quoting rules use dashs, casebook us periods. John did that but it isn't always generally known.

It should be generally known. It can easily be seen by the observant in reading the rules and case books.

[calablue]

Paperripper, I had the exact same situation recently (except the coach accepted my explanation about straddling the rubber w/out the ball and on we went). Mine was at 13-15 Babe Ruth game and I put it back in play while the pitcher straddled the rubber:big_no . F3 yells "I got him", I look and see he's got the ball. I called the balk. About 2 pitches later the light comes on in my head and I realize I screwed the pooch on that one. It's one of those situations where I wish someone had questioned the ruling with the right question. "Hey blue, how come you put the ball in play when the pitcher didn't have the ball or when he wasn't on the rubber? ". By the way , I was working this game alone, so no help to be had from a BU .:Cool2:

[Paperipper17]

Paperripper, I had the exact same situation recently (except the coach accepted my explanation about straddling the rubber w/out the ball and on we went). Mine was at 13-15 Babe Ruth game and I put it back in play while the pitcher straddled the rubber:big_no . F3 yells "I got him", I look and see he's got the ball. I called the balk. About 2 pitches later the light comes on in my head and I realize I screwed the pooch on that one. It's one of those situations where I wish someone had questioned the ruling with the right question. "Hey blue, how come you put the ball in play when the pitcher didn't have the ball or when he wasn't on the rubber? ". By the way , I was working this game alone, so no help to be had from a BU .

Definitely not a good feeling.

On an unrelated note, you guys are doing 13-15 solo down there? I need to come home...:BD:

[calablue]

Solo because the league is complaining about losing money.:BD: