Injury at the plate

[dleavitt39]

Another situation from my game yesterday.

R2, 1 out. fly ball drops short of F7, R2 heads home, throw comes in, 1 hops, R2 slides feet first into home plate, F2 drops down to block ball. R2's slide goes straight into F2's wrist/arm area. F2 stays down laying on the plate, writhing in pain. We play by FED rules, but for this league(travel 12u) we've been told safety, safety, safety. Seeing F2 down, I call time for 2 reasons. 1: we're always told safety, safety, safety. 2: this was a practice game. When the catcher went down, BR was about 1/2 way to third, and when I called time, BR had just touched and rounded third. All of a sudden, I have VC racing up to me yelling YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!! You better give my runner home! I tell him calmly, coach, my first priority is the safety of the players on my field. He goes on to tell me that since there was not an active play at the plate, I couldn't stop the game. I responded that since the ball got past F2 and went to the backstop(50 foot backstop) there was an iminent play at the plate, since the runner was rounding third when the ball hit the backstop, the runner was headed home, and I stopped the play before there could be contact initiated at the plate since F2 was still laying on home plate.

I don't know whether I did the right thing or not? Would it make a difference since this is a practice game? Stop the play before something can develop? or let the runner round third, come home, and either A: let the play develop at home, and play around injured F2. B: stop the play as I see the runner and ball about to get to plate around the same time.

Also, if I stop the play, what base awards do I give?

Thanks,

Dan

[Paperipper17]

I'd say you certainly did the right thing here. F2 is hurt, in imminent danger if there's going to be a play at the plate (which there obviously is), it's a practice game...kill it. And you did the right thing by killing it then, as opposed to waiting to see if something would develop. As for the base awards...I'm not sure. I believe (But am by no means sure, you'll have to wait for Brian or MSTaylor or someone with a firmer grasp on the rules to verify this) that this is a situation where you reward by your judgment. If you think he'd make it home if you hadn't called time, give it to him.

Safety is the concern, plain and simple, and you kept that kid safe by keeping the action away from him. So, IMHO, good job.

Is that the same VC from the other thread? the one that was winning 28-3? Guy needs a reality check....:censored:

[Thunderheads]

Good job Dan!

I did a scrimmage double header last Saturday, and I made sure I was VERY CLEAR that we are ALL here for a scrimmage game. So, let's all take that into context, play baseball, have some fun, and learn something, ME included, with a big smile, and everyone laughed, and it set the tone perfectly.

That said though, of course there were some questions in the game, but it was all good though, ... no issues.

Dan, ...I would have killed it too! That coach just got "douchebag of the week" in my book

[mstaylor]

I am not one for killing play too quickly on an injury but in this case you have a scrimmage and a play getting ready happen on top of an injured player, kill it. As to awards, again it is a scrimmage so it really doesn't make a difference. You have a jerk coach winning big, third base coach.

[Umpire in Chief]

Good call Dan. F2 is already injured let's not give the potential for things to get worse. You as the umpire have the discretion to call time if you feel it is a serious injury, and at 12 y/o give the injured player the benefit of the doubt.

As for the BR use your discretion. If the coach is an a$$ he's staying at 3rd.

[Big Red]

Dan,

I second, third and fourth what the guys above mention...you absolutely did the right thing, especially w/ a potential play developing on/around the injured player...and awarding of bases is YOUR discretion.

I would add just a couple things...

1. As far as it being a practice game, IMO that is even more reason to stop it as it doesn't count toward anything for the league/season/record.

2. Again, IMO...even if it had been a real game, you still would've been right. As your org states, as does ours...safety, safety, safety.

Matter of fact, as part of my pre-game, I clearly outline to the coaches that in the event of what appears to be a serious injury, I'm calling time immediately and I want someone out attending to the injured player ASAP, even if it's an opposing coach. I tell them that once the dust settles, me and my partner will get together and figure out the bases. Something to consider for your pre-game. Also, follow up w/ your UIC/org to make sure ya'll are on the same "safety" page.

In your situation, I personally would've told the coach that if he wasn't there to help the injured player, then any further words woulda resulted in ! But, that's me.

I'll caveat the above that I'm referring strictly to LL ball. And generally, once we hit tournament season, we're not as quick to jump on something like that.

But still...the scariest moment I've seen as an umpire was when I was PU for a 13-14 yr old FP game during the PONY S. Region tournament back in '02. Batter hits a short looper to left center gap, right dead in the middle between F7 & F8. They get on their horses and I saw it coming a sec or two before the collision when neither called the ball. It appeared both got their glove on the ball as they ran into each other at full speed and hit head to head...even above the yelling/cheering, the sound was horrendous and I could see the blood even from the plate. We immediately called time and I turned to the game director yelling for EMS. Both were unconscious and it's a bad feeling when you have to bring an ambulance onto a field to remove two players on backboards w/ neck-braces. Both suffered severe lacerations and concussions, but thankfully no neck/spine injuries. I believe we ended up awarding the runner third because SS was already running out and ball stopped not too far from the injured players.

But, I never had a doubt, and neither should you, about calling time in that situation, tournament or not, and both the tournament director and UIC commended our actions.

Maybe it's the military in me, but you can never go wrong w/ a "knock it off" call in the name of safety, nor will I ever 2nd guess someone for doing so! :WTF

[JaxRolo]

Good Job.!!! I would have done the same in a heart beat. Safety First.

[D62 blue]

Good Job.!!! I would have done the same in a heart beat. Safety First.

i agree with all the above , this isnt MLB . safety ,safety, you are responsible for the players on the field . award as you and partner see fit .

[moblue]

Great job stopping play. Along with everyone else... it was the right thing to do.

My problem here is the VC arguing with you. I'll give him one warning (if I feel generous) and he has 0.000001 seconds to comply and shut his mouth, or else he's getting ejected. Get the runner taken care of, then discuss any issues about the play.

[dleavitt39]

Is that the same VC from the other thread? the one that was winning 28-3? Guy needs a reality check....

Yes, this would be the same rat , score at time was 17ish-0.

Great job stopping play. Along with everyone else... it was the right thing to do.

My problem here is the VC arguing with you. I'll give him one warning (if I feel generous) and he has 0.000001 seconds to comply and shut his mouth, or else he's getting ejected. Get the runner taken care of, then discuss any issues about the play.

Only issue there is there'd be no discussion. League only pays for 1 ump

Thanks for all the responses guys, just re-affirms what I believed I did was right.

DL

[Jboval]

Now I do a lot of LL ball, but I have to say, if there is an injury that is very evident (kid rolling around on ground, hit in the face with the ball, etc.), I kill the play instantly. I don't care what is going on, I want coaches on that field immediately to tend to that player. One thing I want to point out is God forbid anything bad should happen, but I am not going to lose sleep at night about a kid getting further injury because I waited to call Time until play was dead, not to mention any legal ramifications that could possibly arise out of delaying treatment for one second longer than possible. My advice is kill it, deal with the issues after making sure these kids are ok.

I had a coach arguing with me 5' from the injured player rolling on the ground about killing the play. I calmly said, "Coach, look at this kid (pointing to him), if that were your child, would you want to be out here as quickly as you could be, or would you want me to wait until play was finished? Think about what you are saying here." He looked at the kid, looked at me... "Whatever... " and walked away. Even when they know we are right they can't admit it!

[JaxRolo]

Even when they know we are right they can't admit it!

This is one of the truest statements I have seen on here. And It applies to all Umpire situations.

[HokieUmp]

Now I do a lot of LL ball, but I have to say, if there is an injury that is very evident (kid rolling around on ground, hit in the face with the ball, etc.), I kill the play instantly. I don't care what is going on, I want coaches on that field immediately to tend to that player. One thing I want to point out is God forbid anything bad should happen, but I am not going to lose sleep at night about a kid getting further injury because I waited to call Time until play was dead, not to mention any legal ramifications that could possibly arise out of delaying treatment for one second longer than possible. My advice is kill it, deal with the issues after making sure these kids are ok.

Not trying to pick on you here, because I don't disagree that we need to stop play soonest, and think about safety. But as was pointed out in another thread here VERY recently, the "legal reasons" argument for justifying something we do or don't do on the field is a canard.

There are umpires who are also lawyers and have researched the subject. No one seems to be able to find an instance where an umpire has been held liable for this sort of thing. So I'd say it's more of a myth than anything. Like Middle Earth. Or unicorns. Or France.

Unless, of course, an umpire was somehow physically restraining the EMT or blocking the path of an ambulance** or something.

**Note to mstaylor: for you, that word is pronounced "am-blance." As a native Marylander myself, I understand you might not recognize it in the above form.

Edited April 21, 2010 by HokieUmp
add a point.

[Jboval]

I would rather say I stopped play immediately to get medical aid, than worry about being right or wrong, legally or within the realm of the rule book or whatever.

I guess I would be more worried about how I would feel personally if something happened, whether the rule book backed me or not. Not gonna sleep better at night thinking "I know I could of stopped play and maybe that kid wouldn't of gotten hurt worse, but I'm not gonna worry about it since the rulebook said I didn't have to stop play until action was complete." That would be a very cold comfort at night, dont'cha think?

[mstaylor]

I guess level has a lot to do with it but I only stop play if I think there can be further injury or I think imediate medical attention is needed. I was at our testing center giving the HS makeup when we got a call from one of the games. A player one hops the fence in center, took about three steps and blew out his knee. They kept the ball live, allowed the two runs to score and then they tagged the BR out. Then they klled the ball and got the trainer out there. There was absolutely no reason to stop play, there was no fear of further injury and it wasn't life threatening. They had already rolled an ambulance when it happened.

If he had fallen on the plate then certainly kill it but there was no medical reason to stop play. The younger they are the quicker you stop it but even then try not to if possible. This stance may not be popular but it the correct thing to do. If you have a head or spine injury but absolutely get it killed.

Hokieump, that's funny. You didn't happen to live in Warshington did you? :FIRE:

[HokieUmp]

Hokieump, that's funny. You didn't happen to live in Warshington did you?

No, I lived in Merlin. But I do get warter out of the zinc. I also go downey oshun, hon, where I eat krebs and drink Natty Boh.

Note to everyone other than mstaylor and me - read it out loud, so you know what the hell I just said.

Second note: Caps score an empty netter, up 5-2 with basically no time left. Take THAT, Canadiens fans - that'll show you, pulling that "boo the US anthem" horsesh1t.

[HokieUmp]

I guess I would be more worried about how I would feel personally if something happened, whether the rule book backed me or not. Not gonna sleep better at night thinking "I know I could of stopped play and maybe that kid wouldn't of gotten hurt worse, but I'm not gonna worry about it since the rulebook said I didn't have to stop play until action was complete." That would be a very cold comfort at night, dont'cha think?

I'd sleep just fine - I don't like people all that much, most of the time.

In all seriousness - for the example that started this whole thing, I'd have no problem killing the play. Mostly because it's a bullcrap practice game, and partially because the player is sprawled where the action is.

But in general, what kinds of injuries do YOU see? I mean, we're not talking about Rollerball here - I don't know where someone's going to get hurt worse, or any more long lasting, because I waited an extra 15 seconds before calling time. I might be largely soulless, but I'm not stupid; I believe I would recognize a legitimately harmful situation.

[Jboval]

I have umpired a game where a kid took a throw at second on a steal, got hit in the neck with the ball, didn't look like a horrible play, but when he got up to get the ball, he passed out. Came to when he was lying on the ground, tried to get back up, and passed out again... Scared the poop out of everyone because they thought he was almost convulsing. Come to find out that the trauma to his neck forced his jugular to almost close completely, and when he laid flat his blood pressure was low enough to regain conciousness, but when he went vertical... Lights out!

Also had a kid remove his helmet after scoring on his way back to the Visitors dugout, got hit in the head on an overthrow at 3rd, and although it looked bad, it didn't look horrific. He spent 3 days in a medically induced coma for the swelling. Nowadays if I see a kid remove his helmet on his way back to the dugout, if there is play ongoing in that area, I will kill it immediately, with the explanation that it's a safety issue. I am very adamant about safety and especially the helmet staying on, address it a pre-game, and in the last 25 years have probably only killed the ball twice in a situation such as this. Both of those were the exact same situations of the kid returning to the dugout on the visitors side with a kid coming into 3rd. Killed it, sent the kid back, to second, and told the coach if he would of made sure his kids knew to keep their lids on, then this wouldn't of happened. Both of these injuries happened very early in my umpire days, around 20-25 years ago, so I know firsthand that injuries can be worse than they appear.

Keep in mind that when I reflect back on injuries, I usually flash to head related ones, so the thought of a kid turning an ankle or a knee doesn't really enter my mind. But two kids running into each other, collisions, or anything that could be concussion related, I err on the side of caution.

I will never be the one to say "but guys, the ball was still live", when referring to why I waited to stop play.