Ball or Balk

[Pops]

I thought I had this figured out until I started reading the specific rules in the Fed book. In Fed ball an illegal pitch is penalized with a ball to the batter or a balk if runners are on base (6-1, 6-2,and 6-3 Penalty). Question 1: Is there a Fed list of illegal pitches?

6-1-1 talks about the pitcher taking signs off the rubber. Question 2: Is this an "illegal pitch" or just an infraction penalized with a warning?

6-2-1-e talks about going to the mouth and touching the ball. This is listed under "illegal acts" and not illegal pitches. The infraction can occur off the rubber. Question 3: Is the penalty only a ball awarded to the batter? Question 4: If the pitcher goes to the mouth while on the rubber, is this handled the same as going to the mouth off the rubber and touching the ball?

[Umpire in Chief]

I thought I had this figured out until I started reading the specific rules in the Fed book. In Fed ball an illegal pitch is penalized with a ball to the batter or a balk if runners are on base (6-1, 6-2,and 6-3 Penalty). Question 1: Is there a Fed list of illegal pitches?

6-1-1 talks about the pitcher taking signs off the rubber.

A illegal pitch is either a quick pitch or one where he is not engaged with the rubber.

Question 2: Is this an "illegal pitch" or just an infraction penalized with a warning?

Its a "don't do that," but don't go looking for it. I can't tell if he's getting signals from the catcher the bench, telepathically. The thought behind this is to help prevent a quick pitch.

6-2-1-e talks about going to the mouth and touching the ball. This is listed under "illegal acts" and not illegal pitches. The infraction can occur off the rubber.

Yes, just going to your mouth then the ball is not a pitch so it has it's own award. And yes the infraction can occur anywhere. That's the problem they are having in MLB right now.

Question 3: Is the penalty only a ball awarded to the batter?

Yes.

Question 4: If the pitcher goes to the mouth while on the rubber, is this handled the same as going to the mouth off the rubber and touching the ball?

Yes, as long as he doesn't wipe.

[noumpere]

A illegal pitch is either a quick pitch or one where he is not engaged with the rubber.

That's the OBR definition, but not the FED definition. In FED, anything (?) that would be a balk with runners on is an illegal pitch with no runners.

Yes, as long as he doesn't wipe.

Again, OBR, not FED. In FED, if the pitcher goes to his mouth with runners on, it's a balk -- the arm movement is considered the start of a pitch (or a motion to come set).

[Pops]

That's the OBR definition, but not the FED definition. In FED, anything (?) that would be a balk with runners on is an illegal pitch with no runners.

My original post was intended to discuss Fed rules, and I believe "Umpire in Chief" gave me accurate answers. But I'm a bit confused by your response to his illegal pitch definition, noumpere. Where did you find this in the Fed book? That was the reason for question #1 in my OP; I couldn't find a good definition for illegal pitches in the book. However, I still believe that with no runners on base it is a ball. With runners on, it is a balk.

Also, "going to the mouth" while off the rubber would not seem to be an illegal pitch, but an illegal act, correct? Then the penalty is only a ball regardless of runners being on base. Please help me understand this.

[Umpire in Chief]

Noumpere is correct, great catch. I stand corrected....

Rog, It's not written per se but the definition in 2-18.

WIth runners on it is a balk.

[JamesC]

In FED, if you're not on the rubber you can go to your mouth as long as you wipe prior to touching the ball, correct?

[BrianC14]

In FED, if you're not on the rubber you can go to your mouth as long as you wipe prior to touching the ball, correct?

Correct.

I still wonder what happened to rosin bags....

[mstaylor]

Correct.

I still wonder what happened to rosin bags....

They taste bad.

[mstaylor]

Noumpere is correct, great catch. I stand corrected....

Rog, It's not written per se but the definition in 2-18.

WIth runners on it is a balk.

Imagine a start and stop from the wind-up with no runners. In OBR it's nothing, in Fed it's a ball. :shakehead:

[Umpire in Chief]

Imagine a start and stop from the wind-up with no runners. In OBR it's nothing, in Fed it's a ball.

Not touching that one.

[BrianC14]

They taste bad.

Sometimes I ask pitchers if they think about all the goose turds in the outfield when they put their fingers in their mouth.... :HS

[Pops]

For Fed ball only...Section 18 is worded very badly in my opinion. With no runners on base, an illegal pitch is an illegal act. But with a runner on base, is an illegal pitch the same as an illegal act??? Remember 6-2-1 lists the illegal acts by a pitcher, not illegal pitches. For the sake of discussion, let's use these examples:

1. Pitcher uses quick pitch (illegal pitch) with no runners

2. Pitcher uses quick pitch (illegal pitch) with runner on third

3. Pitcher goes to his mouth and then touches the ball (illegal act) while off the rubber with no runner on base

4. Pitcher goes to his mouth and then touches the ball (illegal act) while off the rubber with runner on third

What do we have in each example? I say:

1. Ball

2. Balk

3. Ball

4. Ball

Am I wrong?

[yawetag]

the arm movement is considered the start of a pitch (or a motion to come set).

Yet going to the hat isn't. :spit:

[noumpere]

Yet going to the hat isn't.

Correct, based on a change to the relevant case play a couple of years ago.

[noumpere]

For Fed ball only...Section 18 is worded very badly in my opinion. With no runners on base, an illegal pitch is an illegal act. But with a runner on base, is an illegal pitch the same as an illegal act??? Remember 6-2-1 lists the illegal acts by a pitcher, not illegal pitches. For the sake of discussion, let's use these examples:

1. Pitcher uses quick pitch (illegal pitch) with no runners

2. Pitcher uses quick pitch (illegal pitch) with runner on third

3. Pitcher goes to his mouth and then touches the ball (illegal act) while off the rubber with no runner on base

4. Pitcher goes to his mouth and then touches the ball (illegal act) while off the rubber with runner on third

What do we have in each example? I say:

1. Ball

2. Balk

3. Ball

4. Ball

Am I wrong?

I have the same as you.

[yawetag]

Correct, based on a change to the relevant case play a couple of years ago.

And it makes no sense at all. If going to the mouth is balk because it simulates the start of the pitch, why isn't it the same for going to the hat?

[noumpere]

And it makes no sense at all. If going to the mouth is balk because it simulates the start of the pitch, why isn't it the same for going to the hat?

I agree it makes no sense, but I'd have it the other way around. It shouldn't be a balk either way.

[yawetag]

I agree it makes no sense, but I'd have it the other way around. It shouldn't be a balk either way.

Agreed.

[mazzamouth]

Imagine a start and stop from the wind-up with no runners. In OBR it's nothing, in Fed it's a ball.

NCAA it's nothing...I had this happen in a DI series i had this weekend. the PU actually messed it up and called it a ball, because F1 did not deliver the pitch to the plate. HC complains, and HP gets all 3 of us together to talk, and we changed his call....LOL

[mazzamouth]

And it makes no sense at all. If going to the mouth is balk because it simulates the start of the pitch, why isn't it the same for going to the hat?

some times you have to just UMPIRE.. you can tell the difference between going to this mouth,and starting his wind up/ delivery to the plate... just like if F1 is pitching in the wind up he can go into his glove and make a quick adjustment of the ball, and that is not his pitching motion.... if a pitcher well in the stretch ( but not before he come set) moves his glove as to ask for the sign again is that the start of his motion?

[mazzamouth]

And it makes no sense at all. If going to the mouth is balk because it simulates the start of the pitch, why isn't it the same for going to the hat?

I agree it makes no sense, but I'd have it the other way around. It shouldn't be a balk either way.

where does it say going to your mouth is the start of your pitching motion? or fixing your hat?

[noumpere]

where does it say going to your mouth is the start of your pitching motion? or fixing your hat?

HAt: 6.1.2D (note that it's been changed; the current book has the action as legal; the 2008 and prior books had it as illegal)

Mouth: 6.2.1A and 6.2.1B

[mazzamouth]

HAt: 6.1.2D (note that it's been changed; the current book has the action as legal; the 2008 and prior books had it as illegal)

Mouth: 6.2.1A and 6.2.1B

these are infractions by a pitcher, not starting his motion. but these are still not a balk, just illegal acts, which is just a warning or a EJ.

[yawetag]

where does it say going to your mouth is the start of your pitching motion? or fixing your hat?

The 2009 Baseball Preseason Guide, page 3, "Pitching requirement changes". My quote may be worded a bit differently, as my scanned copy cut this page in half for some reason: "...that going to the mouth while in contact with the pitcher's plate is a balk, not because the pitcher is going to his mouth, but because the action simulates the beginning of the pitching motion."

[noumpere]

these are infractions by a pitcher, not starting his motion. but these are still not a balk, just illegal acts, which is just a warning or a EJ.

Incorrect in FED.