Legal pick-off?

[kwiggie]

This happened during a H.S game last year and I still second guess my actions a year later... the guilt is killing me so I put it before the board.

HS Babe Ruth league FED, runners are R1 anb R2. F1 starts into his stretch and before he comes to his set R1 and R2 take off on a delayed steal. F1 comes to set, even pauses what I can still remember to be a full 1 second (if that even matters?), then throws to B3 (as if in a legal pick-off move) without stepping back off the rubber with his pivot foot.

End result: I called nothing and let the play run it's course. pitcher throws to third with plenty of time, R1 continues to B3 and dislodges the ball on a legal slide into the bag, both runners are safe. The Defensive coach (I think) is thinking that he got away with a balk, and the Offensive coach has the end result that he wanted anyways so nothing is made of a potential missed call by me.

Should this have been killed and a balk called on the pitcher for not stepping off and throwing essentially a "pick-off" move ahead of the lead runner, or is this a legal move since he did mechanically throw a legal "pick-off" move ahead of "a" runner.

Hurry... this one has been haunting me!

[calablue]

If I'm understanding you correctly, there are runners on 1st and 2nd, the pitcher is in contact with the rubber with his pivot foot, the runners take off and the pitcher throws to 3rd base to make a play on the now stealing runner. I don't see a balk here If the pitcher stepped toward third base before he threw. His throw to third is not considered throwing to an unoccupied base because he is attempting to make a play.

[Umpire in Chief]

If I'm understanding you correctly, there are runners on 1st and 2nd, the pitcher is in contact with the rubber with his pivot foot, the runners take off and the pitcher throws to 3rd base to make a play on the now stealing runner. I don't see a balk here If the pitcher stepped toward third base before he threw. His throw to third is not considered throwing to an unoccupied base because he is attempting to make a play.

+1 :nod:

[kwiggie]

YES!!!!

You have the senario exactly right CataBlue (sorry for the fed designations), and this is what I thought as I let the play progress. The "second guessing" comes when a following game later that week when the same head coach of that defensive team (by the way was my former HS football coach circuit "1991" and legendary HS baseball coach in WI whom I competed against back in the day and very much respect... hell I still call him Coach when he comes into my grocery store) came up to me and stated that his pitcher "Got away with a balk" on the particular play that I am describing.

[semper_fi_72]

This happened during a H.S game last year and I still second guess my actions a year later... the guilt is killing me so I put it before the board.

HS Babe Ruth league FED, runners are R1 anb R2. F1 starts into his stretch and before he comes to his set R1 and R2 take off on a delayed steal. F1 comes to set, even pauses what I can still remember to be a full 1 second (if that even matters?), then throws to B3 (as if in a legal pick-off move) without stepping back off the rubber with his pivot foot.

End result: I called nothing and let the play run it's course. pitcher throws to third with plenty of time, R1 continues to B3 and dislodges the ball on a legal slide into the bag, both runners are safe. The Defensive coach (I think) is thinking that he got away with a balk, and the Offensive coach has the end result that he wanted anyways so nothing is made of a potential missed call by me.

Should this have been killed and a balk called on the pitcher for not stepping off and throwing essentially a "pick-off" move ahead of the lead runner, or is this a legal move since he did mechanically throw a legal "pick-off" move ahead of "a" runner.

Hurry... this one has been haunting me!

If I understand correctly.

You say F1 made a legal move to 3rd base, as if there was a runner on the base.

He does not have to step back off rubber to throw since he in now making a play on a runner attempting to steal the base. He is not throwing to a unoccupied base any more.

No Balk.

Put the nightmare behind you and sleep well.

You made the right call which was not to make a call.:nod:

[JamesC]

See, I have a hard time understanding how this is not picking off an unoccupied base. At the time of the pickoff, there were runners on R1 and R2; there was no R3. Only if there were a runner on 3rd at the time of the pickoff should that be considered making a play. I would think the runner would have to disengage the rubber. Seems as though if the same thing were happening, R1 and R3, R1 attempts a steal and F1 just does a wheel move and snaps the ball to F4/F6. I may be completely wrong, but I just don't see how this is not picking off to an unoccupied base?

[JamesC]

Ok, I posted at the same time as semperfi, but I am still curious as to when/why F1 would ever throw to an unoccupied base. This seems as though throwing to a base a runner is attempting to steal is not considered picking off an unoccupied base; therefore, I guess you would have to be calling a really weak/unintelligent team for them to attempt to pickoff to an empty base.

[carolinablue]

Ok, I posted at the same time as semperfi, but I am still curious as to when/why F1 would ever throw to an unoccupied base. This seems as though throwing to a base a runner is attempting to steal is not considered picking off an unoccupied base; therefore, I guess you would have to be calling a really weak/unintelligent team for them to attempt to pickoff to an empty base.

You may have a scenario where R2 fakes a steal and the F6 or F5 yells to F1 that he is stealing and the F1 steps and throws to 3B. If the runner was only juking then you could have a balk.

[kwiggie]

So if I undedstand you right Semper and UICCatablue, the fact that R1 is making an bonifiied attempt at stealing B3 on a delayed steal F1 is making a play on a potentially occupied base, which is a legal move by F1?

To open another can of worms; Could F1 use a "wheel move" to throw ahead of a delayed steal from B1 to B2?

To go even further: Is there such a thing as a pick off move to B4 (excluding a straight delivery of a pitch) assuming that F1 is in the stretch. I guess the senerio that comes to mind would be a suicide squeeze where R1 may take off prior to the set position of F1 and B2 is squaring around to lay down a bunt. Or would F1 only option in this scenario be to make a pick-off move to B3 and hope for a run down, since I can assume that F2 and F1 would not have the savy to execute a "pitch-out" in this scenario.

[Umpire in Chief]

So if I undedstand you right Semper and UICCatablue, the fact that R1 is making an bonifiied attempt at stealing B3 on a delayed steal F1 is making a play on a potentially occupied base, which is a legal move by F1?

Yes, if there is a steal on he can make a play on the runner. But, If it's only a feint, its a balk

To open another can of worms; Could F1 use a "wheel move" to throw ahead of a delayed steal from B1 to B2?

Yes, as long as the steal is on at the time of F1 delivering to 2nd

To go even further: Is there such a thing as a pick off move to B4 (excluding a straight delivery of a pitch) assuming that F1 is in the stretch. I guess the senerio that comes to mind would be a suicide squeeze where R1 may take off prior to the set position of F1 and B2 is squaring around to lay down a bunt. Or would F1 only option in this scenario be to make a pick-off move to B3 and hope for a run down, since I can assume that F2 and F1 would not have the savy to execute a "pitch-out" in this scenario.

Yes there is a pick off move to home. The pitcher must disengage or it is a pitch. A pitch the batter can offer at. A disengaged pick off attempt the batter can not offer at else it is batter interference. When disengaged the catcher can come out and catch the ball in front of the plate. When engaged it would be catchers interference.

[semper_fi_72]

Well said Warren :nod:

[mstaylor]

To make the pick to third more interesting there is a difference between OBR and FED. In OBR the R2 has to make a bonifide attempt to advance to make a throw to third legal. If it just a hard jink then it is a balk. In FED the rule says you can hrow to an unoccupided base to make a play or drive a runner back, I'm paraphrasing. What this means is the hard move makes the throw legal.

What Warren said about going home is bang on and true in all rule sets.

[Stan W.]

See, I have a hard time understanding how this is not picking off an unoccupied base. ?

I have always wanted this rule rewritten for clarity as many coaches and umpires only read the intial part of the rule....."you may not throw to an unoccupied base" part without reading the rest of the line that says with the exception of making a play.....

I believe had they started the rule with the exception rather than the statement, I feel there would be less confusion....

"With the exception of making a play, you may not throw to an unoccupied base....."

[Mr Umpire]

I have always wanted this rule rewritten for clarity as many coaches and umpires only read the intial part of the rule....."you may not throw to an unoccupied base" part without reading the rest of the line that says with the exception of making a play.....

I believe had they started the rule with the exception rather than the statement, I feel there would be less confusion....

"With the exception of making a play, you may not throw to an unoccupied base....."

Possibly. However, this would only apply to umpires learning it better. Coaches don't read the rule book anyway. :mad:

[kwiggie]

Yes there is a pick off move to home. The pitcher must disengage or it is a pitch. A pitch the batter can offer at. A disengaged pick off attempt the batter can not offer at else it is batter interference. When disengaged the catcher can come out and catch the ball in front of the plate. When engaged it would be catchers interference.

This is great, now to award bases and or issue outs...

In the scenario that the pitcher did not disengage from the rubber and delivers a pitch, F2 jumps out ahead of or on the plate, completely disrupting B2 attempt to make an attempt on the "pitch" I would issue:

1. If the R1 is making a legit attempt at stealing home (my judgment) R1 is awarded home regardless of out come. Also, B2 is awarded first base both due to catcher obstruction.

2. Same situation with the exception that for the pass several pitches R1 has been juking a steal home but never making an attempt. I would rule catcher obsturction B2 goes to first, and R1 stays put on third never having made any "real" attempt in the past several pitches.

Second scenario:

1. F1 disengages from the rubber and throws home over the plate, F2 tries to move out to catch but B2 does not withdraw his bat during a SSSqueeze attempt. B1 is tagged out, play stands. If B1 successfully makes it home play is killed and B1 is out.

2. Same situation, B2 is not squared up to bunt and has enough sense to not offer on a "pick-off" move to home, but does nothing to vacate himself on a straight steal attempt by R1 home. In all out comes were there is less then 2 outs the runner is declared out, B2 remains at bat.

In FED play I understand that if there are 2 outs on batter interference the batter is out, less then 2 outs the runner that the play would have or was attempted on is out and all other runners are returned back to were they started.

How close am I?

Can anyone think of other situations other then the ones I mentioned? The league that I work is definatly a "Small Ball" style of play and I see these things enough. This is IMO one of my weaker points of knowing the game... trying to lock it down pre-season.

[mstaylor]

This is great, now to award bases and or issue outs...

In the scenario that the pitcher did not disengage from the rubber and delivers a pitch, F2 jumps out ahead of or on the plate, completely disrupting B2 attempt to make an attempt on the "pitch" I would issue:

1. If the R1 is making a legit attempt at stealing home (my judgment) R1 is awarded home regardless of out come. Also, B2 is awarded first base both due to catcher obstruction.

2. Same situation with the exception that for the pass several pitches R1 has been juking a steal home but never making an attempt. I would rule catcher obsturction B2 goes to first, and R1 stays put on third never having made any "real" attempt in the past several pitches.

Second scenario:

1. F1 disengages from the rubber and throws home over the plate, F2 tries to move out to catch but B2 does not withdraw his bat during a SSSqueeze attempt. B1 is tagged out, play stands. If B1 successfully makes it home play is killed and B1 is out.

2. Same situation, B2 is not squared up to bunt and has enough sense to not offer on a "pick-off" move to home, but does nothing to vacate himself on a straight steal attempt by R1 home. In all out comes were there is less then 2 outs the runner is declared out, B2 remains at bat.

In FED play I understand that if there are 2 outs on batter interference the batter is out, less then 2 outs the runner that the play would have or was attempted on is out and all other runners are returned back to were they started.

How close am I?

Can anyone think of other situations other then the ones I mentioned? The league that I work is definatly a "Small Ball" style of play and I see these things enough. This is IMO one of my weaker points of knowing the game... trying to lock it down pre-season.

Sitch 1) Legal pitch and F@ obstructs in Fed the runner returns and the batter gets his base. In OBR all runners get a base and the batter gets first.

2) Batter gets first others runners stay.

Sitch 2) Less than two outs, R3 is out. With two outs the batter is out.

2)Same as the previous.

[mazzamouth]

So if I undedstand you right Semper and UICCatablue, the fact that R1 is making an bonifiied attempt at stealing B3 on a delayed steal F1 is making a play on a potentially occupied base, which is a legal move by F1?

To open another can of worms; Could F1 use a "wheel move" to throw ahead of a delayed steal from B1 to B2? YES

To go even further: Is there such a thing as a pick off move to B4 (excluding a straight delivery of a pitch) assuming that F1 is in the stretch. I guess the senerio that comes to mind would be a suicide squeeze where R1 may take off prior to the set position of F1 and B2 is squaring around to lay down a bunt. Or would F1 only option in this scenario be to make a pick-off move to B3 and hope for a run down, since I can assume that F2 and F1 would not have the savy to execute a "pitch-out" in this scenario.

If the pitcher, pitches to F2 and then they try to tag R3 stealing, this is cool, heck the pitcher can even speed up his delivery to HP...If F1 step's off to try and retire R3 stealing and the batter hits the ball.. "dead ball. batter is out"...not sure if this help's

real quick... R3 ( is on 3rd base).. R2 ( is on 2nd base) ...and R1 is on 1st.. please use this.. you will confuse people...LOL

this is a legal move as long as the runner is making a legitimate effort to steal the base.

[kwiggie]

Yes, this does help Mazz, and everyone else!

I apologize for using fed terminology, it is all I have been reading for 2 weeks...

[Paperipper17]

Definitely legal. Back in the 40s or 50s, I forget who the manager was, but he started instructing his pitchers to make that "pick" to third when the runners took off from 1st and 2nd in the full count, two outs situation. It worked several times, then guys got wise, and it started to bite them in the a$$ when guys wouldn't break on the pitch, or would fake the steal (I bet that caused a for the umps...if there's a fake, is that still an attempt? Is there now a play?). Balk. Now guys know to be sure the pitch is made, so you just don't see it much anymore.

[mstaylor]

The Smart thing to do with bases loaded or just R1, R2 is to make the move to second. That way if they break then you have a choice to play on R1 or throw over to third to play on R2. If they don't break then you are still legal because you have a R2 to start with.