Battle with a 12 yr old catcher!

[RenoUmp]

I am reconsidering my actions in this situation. What do you think?

First fall ball game yesterday. Ages late 12s - 15.

Home catcher comes late out the dugout (again, start of the game). Pitcher has to warm up with the third baseman. I give him three to get use to the pitcher.

Live ball, first pitch. Inside, bounces just in front of catcher. No attempt to get in front of ball. Hits me in shinguards. I tell catcher to move in front of the ball and stop it with his equipment.

Second pitch. Letter-high fastball, inside edge of plate. Straight from pitcher's hand to my mask. Catcher was late with his glove. Turns around and say's, "My bad".

I take off my mask and sternly tell catcher that that "can't happen again" and that he needs to get motivated and catch the ball.

Last pitch of at bat. Pitcher bounces one under the catcher to come up and hit me squarely in the cup.

I point the runner to first (walk), call "time" and call for the home manager.

I tell him that he needs to "motivate" his catcher into catching or stopping the ball. He makes some excuse about his "inexperience" which I quickly pass of as no excuse.

I again tell him to get his player motivated and walk away to the fence behind the plate.

Coach calls the catcher and goes to the mound, where he talks to the battery.

Catcher got better for the next two innings and then moved to another position.

I am wondering if I should have been a bit more patient and worked with the kid a bit more before going to the coach; however, I keep coming back to the though that "I am not a backstop".

What do you think?

[BrianC14]

I am reconsidering my actions in this situation. What do you think?

First fall ball game yesterday. Ages late 12s - 15.

Home catcher comes late out the dugout (again, start of the game). Pitcher has to warm up with the third baseman. I give him three to get use to the pitcher.

Live ball, first pitch. Inside, bounces just in front of catcher. No attempt to get in front of ball. Hits me in shinguards. I tell catcher to move in front of the ball and stop it with his equipment.

You have no business telling a catcher of any age how to play baseball. That is, quite frankly, not your job. That it happened on the first pitch of the game makes this even more your problem. Please, do not say things like this to a catcher.

Second pitch. Letter-high fastball, inside edge of plate. Straight from pitcher's hand to my mask. Catcher was late with his glove. Turns around and say's, "My bad".

I take off my mask and sternly tell catcher that that "can't happen again" and that he needs to get motivated and catch the ball.

Again - you should not be saying things like this - and taking your mask off - ?? Now, if you think he did this on purpose, then there's only ONE THING you can and should do: EJECT HIM. If you're not sure, or if you think he's just not very good at catching, then leave your mask on, and let him know that he's going to need to get his mitt on the pitch. Nothing more.

Last pitch of at bat. Pitcher bounces one under the catcher to come up and hit me squarely in the cup.

How does that happen? I've had this happen on a foul ball, but off a pitch ?? Wow !

I point the runner to first (walk), call "time" and call for the home manager.

Is it really necessary to point batters to their awarded base? Don't players in this league know which way to go on 'Ball Four'?

I tell him that he needs to "motivate" his catcher into catching or stopping the ball. He makes some excuse about his "inexperience" which I quickly pass of as no excuse.

I again tell him to get his player motivated and walk away to the fence behind the plate.

Coach calls the catcher and goes to the mound, where he talks to the battery.

Catcher got better for the next two innings and then moved to another position.

I am wondering if I should have been a bit more patient and worked with the kid a bit more before going to the coach; however, I keep coming back to the though that "I am not a backstop".

What do you think?

At that age level, yes, it sucks, but you should have been more patient. I'd classify your actions (removing your mask, especially) as intimidating to someone that age and inexperience. At an older age level, if you took your mask off in this fashion, it's a sign that someone's going to the parking lot.... just some food for thought about mask removal.

I've motivated bad (inexperienced) catchers by telling them this or that, but usually after at least a couple of innings, and out of earshot of the other team's players. And what I refrain from doing is telling them HOW they should be doing their job (e.g., I'm not coaching them).

Here's what I've used, with satisfactory results:

Me: "Tommy, can I borrow your mitt?"

Tommy: "Huh? My mitt? Why?"

Me: "Well Tommy, I figured you weren't using it, so I might as well put it to good use."

If the kid has got even 5 brain cells and 3 synapses still firing, he'll get the message.

You are not there to coach. I understand (all too well) that you're not there to be the backstop. But taking a couple of whacks doesn't put coaching on your list of things to do. Please don't do that.

Edited September 14, 2009 by BrianC14

[Aging_Arbiter]

You have no business telling a catcher of any age how to play baseball. That is, quite frankly, not your job. That it happened on the first pitch of the game makes this even more your problem. Please, do not say things like this to a catcher.

Again - you should not be saying things like this - and taking your mask off - ?? Now, if you think he did this on purpose, then there's only ONE THING you can and should do: EJECT HIM. If you're not sure, or if you think he's just not very good at catching, then leave your mask on, and let him know that he's going to need to get his mitt on the pitch. Nothing more.

How does that happen? I've had this happen on a foul ball, but off a pitch ?? Wow !

Is it really necessary to point batters to their awarded base? Don't players in this league know which way to go on 'Ball Four'?

At that age level, yes, it sucks, but you should have been more patient. I'd classify your actions (removing your mask, especially) as intimidating to someone that age and inexperience. At an older age level, if you took your mask off in this fashion, it's a sign that someone's going to the parking lot.... just some food for thought about mask removal.

I've motivated bad (inexperienced) catchers by telling them this or that, but usually after at least a couple of innings, and out of earshot of the other team's players. And what I refrain from doing is telling them HOW they should be doing their job (e.g., I'm not coaching them).

Here's what I've used, with satisfactory results:

Me: "Tommy, can I borrow your mitt?"

Tommy: "Huh? My mitt? Why?"

Me: "Well Tommy, I figured you weren't using it, so I might as well put it to good use."

If the kid has got even 5 brain cells and 3 synapses still firing, he'll get the message.

You are not there to coach. I understand (all too well) that you're not there to be the backstop. But taking a couple of whacks doesn't put coaching on your list of things to do. Please don't do that.

While I agree and would have addressed the coach, I feel the need to point out your indifference, which is confusing. If your first paragraph, you say it isn't his job. Agreed? Your second paragraph, you contradict that with telling him to put his mitt on the ball.

Now depending on the level or locale, I might mention it to the catcher. 99.9% of the kids in my home league know who I am, and all of the coaches do. I joke with all of the kids most of the time. However, they know when the mask goes on, it's all business for their fun. Yet, with fall ball being an "instructional time", I might inform the coach to train his catchers during practice.......not a game.

If this were an upperlevel game (where some catcher are actually free thinking entities), I usually have several conversations between batters, time outs, etc. Shoot, I had one kid at a SrLL game (that I had since LL Minors), telling me about his new girlfriend during warm ups.

While it might not work for all, an area that seems to work well for me, is my lightheartedness around the fields. There is nobody afraid to come ask me anything regarding rules, game (can I, or why can't I) situations, etc. Again, when the mask goes on, they know that if I mention something to them jokingly, that they may want to fix it.

Sorry, but the Frumpire I am not.

[BrianC14]

While I agree and would have addressed the coach, I feel the need to point out your indifference, which is confusing. If your first paragraph, you say it isn't his job. Agreed? Your second paragraph, you contradict that with telling him to put his mitt on the ball.

Now depending on the level or locale, I might mention it to the catcher. 99.9% of the kids in my home league know who I am, and all of the coaches do. I joke with all of the kids most of the time. However, they know when the mask goes on, it's all business for their fun. Yet, with fall ball being an "instructional time", I might inform the coach to train his catchers during practice.......not a game.

If this were an upperlevel game (where some catcher are actually free thinking entities), I usually have several conversations between batters, time outs, etc. Shoot, I had one kid at a SrLL game (that I had since LL Minors), telling me about his new girlfriend during warm ups.

While it might not work for all, an area that seems to work well for me, is my lightheartedness around the fields. There is nobody afraid to come ask me anything regarding rules, game (can I, or why can't I) situations, etc. Again, when the mask goes on, they know that if I mention something to them jokingly, that they may want to fix it.

Sorry, but the Frumpire I am not.

Sure, if you're on a familiar basis with all, then lighthearted might work because THEY UNDERSTAND that and perhaps they're ACCUSTOMED to hearing it from you.

But if that's not the case, a stab at some humor might be perceived as an insult.

But I don't believe that I'm contradicting myself when I say that I don't "coach" - e.g., I don't tell a player a how and when of playing his position (can you imagine telling a second baseman, "Hey stay down on the ball!") It's the same with F2 - I've dropped a not-so-subtle hint to him that he needs to get his glove on the ball - nothing more. (And I don't repeat it). I don't see that as coaching him. To wit: "Johnny, you know, if you slide your whole body to the right, you can block that outside pitch in the dirt." THAT is coaching.

For older kids, (high school level) I don't sugar coat it - I've been far more direct about "getting some leather" on the ball - and again - that's ALL I say, and they know why I said it.

Then again, I don't work Little League, or any league that young, so what might get you through that level is one thing, what I use to survive with older kids (again, my stuff is all high school and older) is whole 'nother thing.

Edited September 15, 2009 by BrianC14

[SNIPERBBB]

When working below high school ball, you should pretty well expect to be hit repeatedly. At that age they don't trust the equipment they are wearing that well. You also probably will get nowhere trying to coach a kid how to play his position during a game, you'd be better off talking to a wall most times.

Catcher's like you describe should remind you of how good an investment it was in the equipment you are wearing when behind the plate. Just remind yourself you are getting paid for it, if not then refer to the former point, and hope the game goes quick.

I have seen an umpire in summer ball that will tell coaches that they better have their No. 1 catcher behind the plate tonight. Not good.

[BrianC14]

When working below high school ball, you should pretty well expect to be hit repeatedly. At that age they don't trust the equipment they are wearing that well. You also probably will get nowhere trying to coach a kid how to play his position during a game, you'd be better off talking to a wall most times.

Catcher's like you describe should remind you of how good an investment it was in the equipment you are wearing when behind the plate. Just remind yourself you are getting paid for it, if not then refer to the former point, and hope the game goes quick.

I have seen an umpire in summer ball that will tell coaches that they better have their No. 1 catcher behind the plate tonight. Not good.

Signs that you're in for a long game:

a) #1 is on vacation with his parents.

#2 is out with an injury.

c) #3 is on the mound.

Good luck! :agasp_:

[SNIPERBBB]

Signs that you're in for a long game:

a) #1 is on vacation with his parents.

#2 is out with an injury.

c) #3 is on the mound.

Good luck!

Just hope the pitcher can keep the ball around the zone or can just barely lob it it.

[mstaylor]

I was working a fall ball Pony league and the manager stops by on his way to third base and says the reason he put a team in fall ball was to develope a catcher. Just what every PU wants to hear. Last year a coach told me the pitcher he was bringing in threw real gas, which he did. I said that was great but could the catcher catch him. His reply was we'll see. That would be a no! I looked at him between innings and just said," Can you help me here?" The next inn ing I had a new catcher.

I have been know to ask the catcher what the name of his position is. When he says catcher, I say so you aren't the "Chase the ball to the screen guy?"

[Umpire in Chief]

Saturday I had a pair of fall ball Bronco games. When the Home catcher finally makes way behind the plate , he's way behind the plate nearly 10'. The coach shows him where to be. He then tells me he's scared.

:wow:I'm scared now.

But I just tell him you just have to catch the ball just like you would anywhere else on the field.

In the middle of the game he tried scooting back and I told him to take a hop forward and he went about 1". The next pitch was a passed ball, as he went for it I took a step forward, so when he came back he'd be where I wanted him. He then sat back against my shin guard.

All in all he didn't do too bad and I told him he did a great job.

[LMSANS]

When I was 10-12, my uncle, cousin & brother were the plate umpires (not usually at the same time). If I was too far back, I'd feel the balloon pushing me forward until I was in the right position.:agasp_:

[Aging_Arbiter]

When I was 10-12, my uncle, cousin & brother were the plate umpires (not usually at the same time). If I was too far back, I'd feel the balloon pushing me forward until I was in the right position.

Unfortunately Larry, I don't have a nephew, cousin, or brother playing. Some times the "good ol' days" don't look so bad after all. I did however, have the grandson of another umpire catching. Since I knew him personally, I did tell him that if I got hit by a ball that he "SHOULD HAVE" caught, that the next time he squats, I'm kickin' him in the tail. He laughed about it as well. Ironically, the word spread and catchers would come up to me prior to other games to inform me that they would do their best at not getting kicked in the can. I don't know HOW that rumor got started.... :WTF

[mstaylor]

Unfortunately Larry, I don't have a nephew, cousin, or brother playing. Some times the "good ol' days" don't look so bad after all. I did however, have the grandson of another umpire catching. Since I knew him personally, I did tell him that if I got hit by a ball that he "SHOULD HAVE" caught, that the next time he squats, I'm kickin' him in the tail. He laughed about it as well. Ironically, the word spread and catchers would come up to me prior to other games to inform me that they would do their best at not getting kicked in the can. I don't know HOW that rumor got started....

I have kicked catchers over the years. You have to know which ones you can do it with and get away with it. I had one years ago that I first umpired at the 13/14 level. He caight through college and some adult wooden bat. I started him umpiring when he was 16. He is now one of our best umpires, is a successful D1 conference staff umpire and a Harry grad. He has worked some A and AA replacement. Must have done some good.

When he was in HS he would complain about a close pitch, I'd kick him and tell him to throw the ball back. His mother loved it.

[MCLEOD36]

I like Bri would just caution you to coaching and / or instructing. There are plenty of ways to get your point across, at 14U, go to the coach. Higher then that, player by a comment or two then the coach.

If things look they are purposeful, then eject.

[UMP6]

This is why I do very little fall ball. These kids still need an umpire, but it is usually not their original playing positions on the field. Little Johnny is the full back or wide receiver at football practice, that is usually the catcher. Be patient and gear up properly. I know in our area, I usually drop it down a level to avoid from getting clocked. We have some highschool fall ball and some of these kids never make the team during the regular season and dad is the coach. He wants his son still to become a catcher. Sometimes these kids can not catch a cold!!

[ump81]

Guys, I disagree that you can not talk to the catcher, you have to work with this guy for 2-3 hours of course your'e going to chit-chat. Imagine a factory line for a shift, you're not going to talk to the guy next to you for the whole day? I have said things like " catch, gotta get your glove on that one", "help me out back here, I gotta see it good to call it". I understand a few cross-ups or wild pitches, but your guy seemed to make no effort at all, you bet I am going to address that. I keep it low key and a bit of humor involved initially, " good thing I brought a new chest protector this week", 'Son, how long you been cathing?". I try to stress that its two of us against the crazy pitchers back here. At the College levels I always get the first names and take a few warm-ups asking what the starter throws and if he has anything funky, split, knuckle, etc. This always sets a good tone, telling catcher I am interested and doing my job the best I can. I have gone to the coach after repeated trys to get a good effort back there, usually again I set it up as me trying to help him, "coach I love strikes as much as anybody, but I cant see the ball properly back there your catcher is all over the place, can you help me to call a better zone for your pitcher", absolutely we can work to not get killed back there. The fact we have $400 of gear on, does not make it hurt any less when we take one in the thigh, groin or other less paded area. For sure talk to your catchers, keep it light hearted as much as you can, work with him to let you do your job better. Don't be-little or blatantly "coach" the kid but gently as possible help him to stop the ball, catch the pitch, frame it and then you call it. But I have gone so far as to ask a coach to get another guy back there, very rarely, maybe 3-4 in 15 years. We have a duty to work the plate, but we have no duty in my mind to get hurt, take useless shots for lack of effort, or be a human back stop for terrible catching! My take.

[BrianC14]

Guys, I disagree that you can not talk to the catcher, you have to work with this guy for 2-3 hours of course your'e going to chit-chat.

Where did anyone say there should be no talking to the catcher?

Imagine a factory line for a shift, you're not going to talk to the guy next to you for the whole day? I have said things like " catch, gotta get your glove on that one", "help me out back here, I gotta see it good to call it". I understand a few cross-ups or wild pitches, but your guy seemed to make no effort at all, you bet I am going to address that. I keep it low key and a bit of humor involved initially, " good thing I brought a new chest protector this week", 'Son, how long you been cathing?". I try to stress that its two of us against the crazy pitchers back here. At the College levels I always get the first names and take a few warm-ups asking what the starter throws and if he has anything funky, split, knuckle, etc. This always sets a good tone, telling catcher I am interested and doing my job the best I can. I have gone to the coach after repeated trys to get a good effort back there, usually again I set it up as me trying to help him, "coach I love strikes as much as anybody, but I cant see the ball properly back there your catcher is all over the place, can you help me to call a better zone for your pitcher", absolutely we can work to not get killed back there. The fact we have $400 of gear on, does not make it hurt any less when we take one in the thigh, groin or other less paded area. For sure talk to your catchers, keep it light hearted as much as you can, work with him to let you do your job better.

OK.

Don't be-little or blatantly "coach" the kid but gently as possible help him to stop the ball, catch the pitch, frame it and then you call it.

YGTBSM Please tell me you're joking here. You advise against 'blatantly coaching', but then advise THIS?!?

But I have gone so far as to ask a coach to get another guy back there, very rarely, maybe 3-4 in 15 years. We have a duty to work the plate, but we have no duty in my mind to get hurt, take useless shots for lack of effort, or be a human back stop for terrible catching! My take.

No argument there.

[Mr Umpire]

My take on all of this is quite different.

I won't tell the catcher anything. Why instruct him to catch it after you have been hit? Everyone knows how you got hit. Because he didn't catch the damn ball. If it gets too bad, my body language will change to inform the coach that I have had enough. But, that is as far as I am going.

It is none of my business to tell the coach to get another catcher, talk to his catcher, or tell the catcher what he is doing wrong. Not even by making some snide remark about "giving me his mitt".

While I know it is not our job to stop the ball, it happens. You knew this the moment you took the assignment. Some games are worse than others but it happens. If you don't want to get hit, take T-ball games. It comes with the territory of taking higher games. And, sometimes, you actually get hit back there. Yes, you can get hurt with a bad catcher. But, you can get hurt with the best catcher in the world back there too.

Me, I will not instruct anyone on what to do in a situation. My job ends with calling the game as it happens. It does not include doing things to attempt to change the outcome of the game. Such as, get a better catcher back here to stop the ball and stop the other team's opportunities to score. I'll take my hits to prevent factoring into the outcome of the game. That is not my place to decide.

I understand others position to not want to get hurt. But, that is the risk taken when taking the assignment to do the game. And, it can suck sometimes but those are just the "breaks of the game".