Too quick or just right?

[TommyUmp]

So had my first ej of the year last night. I figured I would ask you guys if I got it right or wrong.

Here is my report:

Prior to: Outbursts regarding pitches not directed toward me such as: "oh comeon!", and "Wow!". However, following a pitch, VT HC did say under his breath "f-bomb.", and in retrospect I should have talked with him about this but I let it go at the time.

During: Following a low and away pitch, VT HC yells from the dugout, "You have to be kidding me blue, you have a postage stamp of a strike zone!" I called time and told VT HC that this was his warning for arguing balls and strikes. He then immediately yelled, "just be consistent!". At this point I ejected VT HC.

Following: VT HC quietly exited the field without incident. There were no more issues regarding balls and strikes for the remainder of the contest.

In the post game my partner told me I was too quick, and that I should have done more preventative umpiring. I understand his criticism, but my gut was telling me this guy was going to be a problem throughout the game.

Should I have gone about it differently? What do you guys think? Any feedback is much appreciated.

[yawetag]

Sounds good to me.

[Stan W.]

In the post game my partner told me I was too quick, and that I should have done more preventative umpiring. I understand his criticism, but my gut was telling me this guy was going to be a problem throughout the game.

Should I have gone about it differently? What do you guys think? Any feedback is much appreciated.

I think you had cause.....and your partners opinion is just that...his opinion.....when he is the UIC, he can apply that to his situation.........

[MPLSMatt]

I'm not sure I would've dumped (I would like to believe I would have) but you were certainly within your right. You told him you didn't want to hear anything more about balls and strikes and he immediately made another comment about balls and strikes. No problem with that at all.

By the way did he say "F Bomb" or F*&k? If its the latter, I'd warn on that right away depending on the level of ball.

[TommyUmp]

He said "F$*k". I was trying to figure out if it was loud enough to warn him. Considering he said it from the dugout and I was at HP and I was able to hear him should have been enough of an indication, but for one reason or another, I let it go.

[Stan W.]

there is an old saying that you dont regret the ejections you do, only the ones you didnt do........I think you may have done your brother umpires a favor by ejecting "Loud Mouthed Charlie" for arguing balls and strikes. It will let him know he cant get away with that next time.....

too many times not ejecting these types just passes this problem down the line......arguing balls and strike and comments like "your stamp sized zone" and admonitions to "be consistent" is ejection worthy....

preventive umpiring does not correct this behavior....you could have kept him in the game, but he would have felt he did nothing wrong...and he would have started up again with the next umpire....

[mstaylor]

This is a problem in youth sports. You get a loud mouth that is constant irritation but many try to keep them in the game so they let it go. As Stan says, the coach then thinks it is OK, it's not. You probably should have warned on the F bomb but you did warn on balls and strikes. He chose not to take you serious, behavior taught by others before you, so he ran through your warning and you dumped him. There is no problem there, hopefully he will before he runs through another stopsign.

[Guest]

I'm not positively certain I'd have an ejection here. But I'm also not saying that I wouldn't have an ejection here. My response to his comments are dictated by how he said them, as well as how he and his bench has behaved all game.

If I do have one criticism for you though, its how you warn them.

"Coach, this is your warning for arguing balls and strikes" is exceptionally amateur and a bit comical.

"Knock it off" or "that's enough" are the typical go-tos. Shorter and more to the point.

As you gain experience, you also learn which phrases to insert / substitute for emphasis IE "Jim, don't even go there. You know you can't argue that. Leave it alone."

[TommyUmp]

Fair enough ump. I was instructed to warn using that language. I personally don't think it's amateur or comical, but to each their own I suppose. If I knew the coach, I probably would have said something different, but the group I'm with is very large and I believe they want us to be consistent as an organization.

[mstaylor]

That is somebody trying to not be confrontational. I will agree it is less confrontational but it is also less effective.

[zebra2955]

I have always been under the thought never use the word "warning" when issuing a warning. Use something else like "thats enough" or something along that line. Never say "not another word" because if they say "what" thats another word and then you have got to do something.

[Thunderheads]

Ok, ... call me a jerk, which I'm not trying to be, ...but ......

Tommy, ... the question I have first is this..... HOW and WHY were they pissed in the first place? Were you in fact calling a postage stamp? And if so, was it 'age appropriate'?? Do you know what I mean? Honest question here, but sometimes looking beyond the situation can help it in the future...

[mstaylor]

Jeff makes a point or was the pitcher just not able to hit the zone. It was like the SC pitcher last night, he was trying to pick the corners but he couldn't. From the dugout he can't see in and out so what looks good to him can be off either way.

You still have to eject the idiot but you can still look at the job you were doing to see if he had a point. A surefire way is if both sides are complaining.

[PeteBooth]

TommyUmp' timestamp='1307543145' post='56049']

In the post game my partner told me I was too quick, and that I should have done more preventative umpiring. I understand his criticism, but my gut was telling me this guy was going to be a problem throughout the game.

The aforementioned is a main problem in the officiating ranks.

Some umpires do not toss at all and leave it up to the next umpire or crew to clean-up. Normally coaches do not all of a sudden change behavior. This coach was most likely getting away with this kind of stuff all season and unfortunately you were the one who had to clean it up.

As a side note: Have someone whom you know and trust watch you for a few games when you are behind the dish so that you can get a REAL opinion about your zone.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

Excellent post Pete. I did a HS game for another assoc in a jam, and tossed a problem coach. I was told after the fact that he had been a problem all year but not so much after I tossed him.

[TommyUmp]

Ok, ... call me a jerk, which I'm not trying to be, ...but ......

Tommy, ... the question I have first is this..... HOW and WHY were they pissed in the first place? Were you in fact calling a postage stamp? And if so, was it 'age appropriate'?? Do you know what I mean? Honest question here, but sometimes looking beyond the situation can help it in the future...

I thought about this for awhile after the game. I came to the conclusion that it was a combination of the HC's son not being anywhere near the strikezone and the fact that their team was far superior to the team they were losing to. He was bouncing balls and those "close ones" were in the left handed batters box. I think what set him off was admittedly a borderline pitch that I balled. And mr. taylor, I thought about the other teams reaction as well, but they didn't have a problem all game and their pitchers were able to find the zone just fine. I dunno, I felt bad about tossing the guy, but I had him again the following weekend and didn't hear anything from him (and he actually apologized at the pre-game).

But you're right thunderheads, taking a step back helps for future games.

[mstaylor]

That's fine, I was just saying to self evaluate and see if your strike zone was good for your level. It sounds like it was so no problem. We had a double ejection the other night in a men's game. When we met with the manager to discuss his team habitual mouth, he said the PU was horrible, it was a roulette wheel on balls and strikes. The other manager thought the PU had a great zone. The PU is a D1 umpire with A and AA experience. The manager comes from an area that the officials allow constant chirping. This is true in all sports not just baseball. They are then surprised when they come into our area and we don't allow the chirping.

[Thunderheads]

Ok, ... call me a jerk, which I'm not trying to be, ...but ......

Tommy, ... the question I have first is this..... HOW and WHY were they pissed in the first place? Were you in fact calling a postage stamp? And if so, was it 'age appropriate'?? Do you know what I mean? Honest question here, but sometimes looking beyond the situation can help it in the future...

I thought about this for awhile after the game. I came to the conclusion that it was a combination of the HC's son not being anywhere near the strikezone and the fact that their team was far superior to the team they were losing to. He was bouncing balls and those "close ones" were in the left handed batters box. I think what set him off was admittedly a borderline pitch that I balled. And mr. taylor, I thought about the other teams reaction as well, but they didn't have a problem all game and their pitchers were able to find the zone just fine. I dunno, I felt bad about tossing the guy, but I had him again the following weekend and didn't hear anything from him (and he actually apologized at the pre-game).

But you're right thunderheads, taking a step back helps for future games.

Great! Glad you took my comment the right way! It sounds like you have it figured out, and it wasn't you at all. If both teams are chirping, ...well, ...ok then, ..maybe, ...but only one side, and w/ the circumstances discussed ... you're good!:cheers:

[Cajuncubsfan]

I have only tossed one fan and two coaches this year. That is a big difference from last year. I tossed out 8 people in all last year. I had to step back and look at the situations and determine was it me or just the fact I was at a Country Park that really didn't have any organized umpires in years. The crowd was awful and the coach’s had no respect. I was Umpire Commissioner and I had to deal with a lot (Scheduling, problem and learning to umpire properly) Good thing I’m a fast learner!

Anyway, What I was told by my mentor (Umpire-in-Chief for LA Dixie & 35 year umpire) “A good plate meeting is always a good way to set the tone for the game. It gives you a chance to warn / remind both coach’s that you’re not going to put up with arguing Ball / Strikes or Judgment. If they have a problem with a Ruling then they can respectfully come out and talk about it. If they want to appeal a call they can ask but it does not have to be granted. If you have any question in your mind about your call, then give them the appeal. But other wise let’s have a good game and play ball.â€

That advise really works, I have had 66 games this year, I have had to toss 1 Head coach, 1 Assistant coach and 1 Fan (The Fan was the other night when I was alone and he was just making life hell for me along with being disrespectful ) All three were in games where I didn’t have a plate meeting.

1) Head Coach, he wanted to throw a fit about a close play at 3B and his runner was stealing and got nailed for it. He was winning by 9 runs in the second inning. When I warned him he should have went to the dugout. (Hell up by 9 I didn’t get why he was bitching)

2) Assistant coach, This on was funny because this coach really flipped out. OK, he was coaching 1B and one of his better hitter and runners is leading off on first (age group 11-12 & this team has already one first place so the game means nothing to them) Pitcher makes a good Move/throw/ first gets the tag. The runner was sleeping, didn’t dive back and just shuffled back. The thing the coach didn’t see and I did was that the runner never stepped on the plate. He stepped to the side of the plate and tried to get his foot on the bag none saliently when he turned back toured me and the pitcher. Busted and the coach lost him mind . I showed him the kids foot print still in the dirt. He threatened me and wouldn’t leave the field. I picked up the phone and called the head umpire for there park and he told me to call the police. He finally left. This guy was big and I really thought I was going to get killed after the game.

[mstaylor]

2) Assistant coach, This on was funny because this coach really flipped out. OK, he was coaching 1B and one of his better hitter and runners is leading off on first (age group 11-12 & this team has already one first place so the game means nothing to them) Pitcher makes a good Move/throw/ first gets the tag. The runner was sleeping, didn’t dive back and just shuffled back. The thing the coach didn’t see and I did was that the runner never stepped on the plate. He stepped to the side of the plate and tried to get his foot on the bag none saliently when he turned back toured me and the pitcher. Busted and the coach lost him mind . I showed him the kids foot print still in the dirt. He threatened me and wouldn’t leave the field. I picked up the phone and called the head umpire for there park and he told me to call the police. He finally left. This guy was big and I really thought I was going to get killed after the game.

Fiirst, never show him evidence, footprints or whatever. You wouldn't want him to do it to you so don't do it to him. I don't have a problem with the ejection but the aftermath I would try handling differently. Once you toss him, walk away and lt either your partner or the manager get rid of him. If you think he wants to get physical, go straight for the cops.

As to the plate meeting, I do not like issuing warnings at the plate meeting, sets a negative tone. Telling them that you expect sportmanship is one thing, actually issuing warnings is another. It is much better in an ejection report if you throw up a stopsign, verbal or visual, and he runs through it, than if you warn him before the game and toss in the sixth.

[Cajuncubsfan]

I don't issue a warning. I just tell them I will not put up with it. The plate meeting also depends on the coaches. If I know them most of the time we will exchange lineups and groud rules.

I just wanted to clarify the I don't say "Your warned" is say "Theres no arguing balls, strikes or judgement. Are all your players..... Ect."

[yawetag]

I don't issue a warning. I just tell them I will not put up with it. The plate meeting also depends on the coaches. If I know them most of the time we will exchange lineups and groud rules.

I just wanted to clarify the I don't say "Your warned" is say "Theres no arguing balls, strikes or judgement. Are all your players..... Ect."

Plate meetings have been hashed over many times here, and I hate to start a new thread about it. However, I can't find a thread using the search.

That said:

1. Introductions

2. Exchange lineups

3. (If Fed) "Players properly equipped?"

4. (If Fed) Sportsmanship

5. Ground rules

6. "Anything else?"

7. Start game

Depending on ground rules, my plate meeting for a Fed game is under 2 minutes. I never give warnings, I never bring up ways to do things, and I never give ultimatums.

[LMSANS]

I don't issue a warning. I just tell them I will not put up with it. The plate meeting also depends on the coaches. If I know them most of the time we will exchange lineups and groud rules.

I just wanted to clarify the I don't say "Your warned" is say "Theres no arguing balls, strikes or judgement. Are all your players..... Ect."

A rose by any other name...

[mstaylor]

I can't stress more that warnings should not be given in plate meetings, that isn't what they are for.

[archangel]

I don't issue a warning. I just tell them I will not put up with it. The plate meeting also depends on the coaches. If I know them most of the time we will exchange lineups and groud rules.

I just wanted to clarify the I don't say "Your warned" is say "Theres no arguing balls, strikes or judgement. Are all your players..... Ect."

There are umpires that believe that warning during the plate conference will actually make their game go smoother.

I can see it now...5th inning, close game, coach disagrees with PU pitch calls, wants to chirp, but remembers the warning at the plate, so he stays quiet...yea right...