Coach Carl

Well, now I am even more confused. I think your strategy of "I talked to them about it, but I'm not in the business of making a scene" is about the only one you could follow to keep the game on track. In most situations, once you get an explanation you have two choices, protest or move on. You chose move on. A protest may have been able to get another neutral person involved which might have gotten it all untangled. But that might have taken 10-15 minutes. I assume you were dealing with time limits so moving on is the best course just to get more baseball played.

Two batters making three outs is possible. With the strike out not being obvious, the mechanics and explanation you recieved are puzzling. If the umpires truly did think your B1 struck out and didn't recognize that B1 stayed up to bat, then it appears the umpires reached the correct conclusion but not for the correct reason. B1 strikes out. 1 out. However, B1 doesn't think he is out so he stays up to bat. The umpires and defense do not recognize this. The offense thinks his at bat is continuing, however he is now batting out of order. If the umpires recognize the problem they can inform the batter that he struck out and try to alleviate the confusion. If they don't take that action, then we now have a Batting Out of Order situation. This offensive violation is only correctable by an appeal from the defense. Now B1 walks. Once the defense delivers the first pitch to B2, the BOO on the walk by B1 can no longer be appealed. He is legally on 1st and we play on. B1 steals second and is thrown out. 2 outs. B2 is retired. 3 outs. Two batters, three outs. In your sitch, the caught stealing was the second out, not the umpires retroactively applying the Batting Out of Order violation. It appears from your description that the defense going off the field brought the situation to light and the umps had to rule on it. They applied the BOO rule but it was too late. He was out on the K and then out on the caught stealing, not on BOO. Lots of wacky things happen in 12U rec ball. Use it as a learning experience for you and your team. Inexperienced rec umpires need time and patience to learn and get better, just like your players do. Help them.

I like @SeeingEyeDog advice. He's given several options that may be more or less effective depending on the assignment and the area you work. Choose one that you think will work for you and go from there. Mine might be: 1. Coach, the ejected player is continuing to disrupt the game. If it doesn't stop, you or one of your assistant coaches is going to have to take him out of sight and sound of the game and supervise him elsewhere. 2. If your instructions are not heeded and the Coach is not compliant with your conditions for keeping the game going then call it and and get out of there. I'd quibble with one term though, "forfeit". I think in most (all?) cases, an incident that causes the umpire to have to call a game would make it a suspended game that gets referred to the appropriate authority (league board, school association, etc) for a final decision (call it done, replay it from suspension, etc.). I think in most rule sets that is the rules-based action you can take. I'd avoid the word forfeit for another reason. If the coach thinks you've awarded a victory to the other team, it may inflame him more and your route to the parking lot and out of there may be more like a guantlet than the already difficult path that you'll probably incur.

You have to piece together two comments from the MLB rules, which I assume are valid for all codes of baseball and softball. 5.09 (c) Appeal Plays Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when: (1) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged; Rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base. Such runner shall be called out on appeal. and 5.09(a) A batter is out when: (1)  His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; Catch Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is “held up” and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.

I would hardly call those "opposites"!

Why would we consider a dead ball appeal on a walk? Since the ball is live on a walk, what happens that creates a dead ball?

Given the pitch clock requirements, maybe it's not so unreasonable? I don't know what the time requirement is for a new batter (is it longer than between pitches?), but perhaps the next batter was ready in about 15 seconds, the umpire pointed play and then the pitcher stepped off and the appeal was completed. I'm guessing #43 was the next batter.

Rule 8-2-6 c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

If, by "picked it up foul" you mean the 3rd baseman first touched the ball while the ball was entirely in foul territory, then it was foul. However, if he touched it while any part of the ball was on or over the foul line, then it was fair. The foul line is in fair territory. It is also important to note that the location of the fielder is not relavent, only the location of the ball.

Genuine question, not rhetorical: Is the stretch actually required? From 5.07(a)(2) as referenced by the OP: Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter.

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight. A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

I think the scorer would (could?) note the FC to account for the presence of the batter-runner on first base, despite being credited for the Sacrifice Bunt (which would imply that he was put out).

He is subject to being called out on appeal: 5.09(c) Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when: (1) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged; Rule 5.09(c)(1) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base. Such runner shall be called out on appeal.

5.08 How a Team Scores (a)  One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. In your play, (a) was satisfied but EXCEPTION (1) existed. It does not matter how the batter-runner was retired. He or first base can be tagged and the exception still exists.

To clarify, are you saying it's a balk because he started the motion when the batter was not ready? In other words, had he come set and then waited, would he be fine? MadMax's answer indicates to me that the latter is acceptable.

NCAA (DIII, if it matters). I was a spectator. Bases Loaded. Pitcher is taking signs from an electronic device on his wrist. He catches the ball from his catcher after a pitch and walks back to the mound. Without looking towards home he gets into his stretch position with his foot on the rubber, hands apart. He looks at his wrist for the sign, then, without looking towards home, begins to bring his hands together to go set. As he does this, he looks at home and sees that the catcher and batter are not ready. Before actually bringing them together, he drops his hands back to his side. Umpire called balk. I agree as I think the pitcher should have continued to come set and waited for everyone to get ready or let the umpire direct him to relax. But maybe, given the sitch the umpire should have called just called time rather than a balk and let him reset?

Those examples are UNDER Regulation VI(k) Note 3, which refers to the "pitchers of record". It is plural because there are two, one for each team. The pitchers of record are the ones who were pitching at the time of the suspension. It was tied at the bottom of the fourth so the pitchers of record are the visitor's pitcher who completed the fourth inning and the home pitcher who was pitching when it was suspended. None of the past pitchers in the game can get a win or a loss so they are not pitchers of record.

Because the umpire said, "Move." No good deed goes unpunished!

I don't know the context of other scheduled games to assess the coach's desire to run-rule this game, but that what it looked like. Trying to get a steal after a walk and trying to get an out on a BI strikes me as, "let's get our 15 after three and save arms". The losing coach needs to understand this strategy and not let it bother him. It's part of the game when you deal with pitch counts and mandatory rest days. Two suggestions: When he was upset about the time out for a conference before his runner got to first, you could de-escalate by taking it away from the opposing coach. Once he directed his comments at the other coach you could intervene by saying, "that's on me coach, I granted it..." plus whatever else you could say if you want to make sure he understands you won't do that again. If he wants to argue with you about it, then quickly get him calm down or face ejection. Meanwhile, the losing coach will learn something too. It's 10U and everyone is learning. On the BI: You got a question as play was ongoing and you gave a loud signal so everyone could hear. I don't know the wisdom (or lack thereof?) of addressing questions while the ball is live, but it seems you learned something. Don't interact with questions until the play is relaxed and you grant time. Then you have the ability to control the conversation and keep it civil.

I appreciate the comedy as much as the next guy but I was really trying to get some game management advice. I am not a current coach but I was and I still volunteer in my Little League. When an umpire is needed I am available to fill in. One thing I have read is that you need not make a foul call when it's obvious to "everyone in the park". Now, I know that "obvious" means something like going out of play or hitting the backstop. I assume that did not happen in the OP, but his description of "everyone" caught my ear. I have also read that umpires should avoid "gross misses". It was in the context of calling balls and strikes but I can certainly see how you would apply that to safe/out and fair/foul. The advice stated that gross misses are sure to cause a game to go south. So, I have now concluded that sticking with a gross miss is better than changing it. Unless anyone else has an opinion on the topic.

Setting aside the proper ruling in the OP, can I ask the umpires about a game management issue in this scenario? If "everyone" thinks it was foul and you are calling fair would you consider that maybe you got it wrong and change your call to foul and letting "everyone" go on with the game as they thought it would go (batter returns to home to complete his at bat)? At this 12U level? At higher levels?

I am only familiar with OBR based rules but my first reaction was: in what context could C. have anything to do do with starting and ending a game?

It may be helpful to consider the rule (OBR 5.08) to run through the scenario. The last comment after the definition of FORCE applies to the OP. 5.08 How a Team Scores (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. R3 scored before the third out was made so it counts unless the out made at 2B was covered under one of the exceptions. Running through the exceptions, we see that none of them apply. Exception (1) does not apply because the batter was the second out on the catch by F8. Exception (2) does not apply because the force was removed once the catch was made (see definition of FORCE). Exception (3) does not apply because there were no preceding runners to R3 (let alone one who was declared out). Definitions of Terms: A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. In the OP: If, in the umpires judgment, the runner from third touched home before the out was made at second base, the run counts.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will wade in one more time: I do think the rules distinguish different dead balls. It is right there in the previously quoted rule, 5.06 (c). 5.06(c) creates the standard (nothing may happen) and gives the exception (when something that happened during live action allows runners to move). It is inherent in the rule itself that some dead balls are treated differently than others. The logic of the rules goes like this: 1. The ball is dead. Does the exception exist? 2.a The exception does not exist so runners cannot move OR 2.b The exception does exist so runners may move. Consult the rules and guidance that are given to govern how that movement may be done. In the OP, we move to 2.a, not 2.b. Since the runners cannot move, the guidance is irrelavant to the OP's situation (and therefore, his attempt to correct his miss during the dead ball is not recognized).

Not only that, but we've so perplexed Mr. Evans that he's invented a distinction regarding a particular calling of time after asserting that MLB doesn't make any distinction regarding the reason for calling time. So, our official interpretation is: allow the touch to correct the error, unless the offense calls time? I think Mr. Evans needs some time to think this through before we run with THAT.