Velho

I follow the initial thought (and that we're just talking here) but if we think through all the possible outcomes is that still how we want to go? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nev9UXagys&t=4m3s

[no rant tag. More a somber one] @noumpere You are right since this is just a game but the same issue exists in things that truly matter (the legal system has always had known issues that could be clarified) and this being a game makes it even more frustrating it can't be fixed here since it should be that much simpler. The seemingly arbitrary nature of the rules and their application, seems to me, to contribute to umpire abuse (not cause, not primary. Contribute). The fact that we, the 1%-5%(?) of all umpires and .0001% (if that) of all baseball fans debate what a "force play" is - something that happens approx. 1 of every 3* outs, speaks to that. * Using the mlb.com Rules definition. ~25% strikeout rate, call it 8% tagouts, and split the rest putout in flight and groundouts. Ok. Time to go do a game. LL Minors TOC (District Championship playoffs) starts today. I've got opening plate. Hopefully no one does something completely brand new that I have to MSU to resolve - that was a joke, but 9-10 years do seem to be the most inventive

This is a subtly that is lost on many.

But [entering hypothetical scenario]... If there was R3, R2, R1 and 2 outs, F6 tagging R2 after R3 scores would be a force and the run would not count. Correct?

“There’s no hugging in baseball!” (Sorry, set up was too easy)

"I’m not explaining it, I’m just relaying it" - Jim Cornette [Sorry. I know, not adding value. Just love the quote, especially how he says.]

Related tangent... Any mechanics advice on how to catch this? Saw this uncalled 4 times this year in my son's HS varsity games this year (3 of them for double plays or 3rd out with 2+ runners on base). Hey, it happens but makes me think of how to minimize the risk. Advice for the ump to get this right? As a coach, I've always told the batter to sell it (not make it up, but sell it) especially if you're likely to be out anyway. Advice for the player/coach in this situation?

Alright, now this is interesting... Based on the OP, R3, after scoring, gets in the way of “the catcher receiving the throw from LF... allowing BR and R1 to advance to 2nd and 3rd”. There was (or let’s assume there was) no direct “following play being made on” BR or R1. The OP put them back to 2nd and 1st to reverse the R3 (unintentional) actions. Is that allowed under any rule or are the only two possible outcomes by rule A)Interference w/ R1 is out or B) No interference w/ R1 and BR stay on 2nd & 3rd?

I had the retreat reinstates the force rule as well (technically my partner did). Maybe not so obscure after all... LL 10U/AAA. R1, 1 out. Grounder that F3 fields clean, R1 freezes 15-20 feet off 1B, BR touches 1B and then backs up directly on the baseline towards home as R1 and F3 come back to 1B. R1 is back on the bag, F3 tags R1, and steps on 1B. PU* meekly gives out mechanic (arm only). I'm at the 30 foot line. Everyone is looking at each other. Me:"What do you have [PU]?" PU: "Both out(?)" Crickets from everyone (I knew no one really followed but silence is assent and works for me) so I turn back to home plate for the next inning. 1B coach looked at my as he walked past with a question in his eye. I gave him the "yeah, he got it right" nod. * PU is a league coach filling his teams volunteer slot (not a regular umpire). I explained the rule and how he got it right later. My pay for the day: Overhear the Offensive Manager (was in the far dugout) who asked his 1B coach: "Did Rob (that's me) say that was the right call?" "Yep" "Ok then". Gotta love that. Compliments to all you and this site I (maybe) knew that rule but I know I had recently seen it/been prompted to look it up from being on here so "Thank you much".

My $0.02 (and worth every cent 😁): play on. I’m just speculating here... The Def coach and parents should let the teams play the game out and not worry so much about finding rules to get them a technical win. Add on: since their d interested in the objective application of the rules in this case, I’m sure they’ll listen when they lose on obstruction, interference, etc. in the future [/rant]

Overview for those interested

This brought to mind some added points for me https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/yankees-gio-urshela-draws-three-ball-walk-vs-tigers-umpire-crew-later-admits-they-missed-the-call/ (fyi: only 1 of the 4 broadcasts caught it and they swallowed calling it out. Odd. I wonder what count the stadium scoreboard showed). I put up the count a lot (likely obnoxiously too often for most umpires); after 2nd pitch and almost every pitch thereafter. But I do LL so players are young/not dialed into the situation and scoreboards (if there is one) are often wrong. If I don't put it up (1-0, 0-1, or repeated 3-2) I will verbalize it for myself, catcher, and batter (picked that up from a friend). It keeps everyone in sync (me included. Having issues lately. Pitches direct at my forehead AND batter swinging (wth?) as I duck likely what is getting me off track 🤣). I'm going to keep doing the mechanics every time. Pound the muscle memory. If the ump had come up with the full "Foul" maybe this wouldn't have happened (no blame. It was a routine check swing foul a 1 in 100K outcome.) Speak up! Focus!

Ha! That would be it.

...and that is? I’m dying with curiosity 😺 (or did I miss which you don’t verbalize?)

I have been working to verbalize or signal everything as appropriate. The airmailed pitches usually end up me talking to myself. Reasons: - over communication is often a often a good thing (Applying this everywhere in my life currently) - that Texas softball foul ball. ~Shudder~ - ‘obvious’ pitched balls and fouls aren’t always so obvious, e.g. I was sitting down the 1B line at my sons’ HS game Thursday, and noticed grounders up the 3B line got no verbal or physical action from the PU. I’m sure he thought they were obvious* but why make 2/3 of the Def and Off guess? Removing ambiguity is a big part of the ump’s job, no? * laziness or definition of obvious has crept over time? Idk

Interesting. Not a two way line since only 1B can be a destination. What say you @Gil? Is the MLB Umpire Manual guidance even necessary?

I haven’t tried the F3 but got the Wilson Platinum new this year and like them. I was one 10U teams RBI machine the other night as F1 pinballed some impressive 15 foot high shots off the kneecaps. I didn’t feel a thing.

So same thing, just not called "abandonment". Got it. Thanks.

🤔 Then what rule gets an out on untagged U3K when they simply walk away? (not fighting, curious)

"He's out. He's out! He's still out"

Raises an intersting question: at what point would Javy be out for abandonment? When he crosses back over home plate? I'm with that. Especially if other team doesn't know the rules. Tagging a forced runner is still a force. That runner coming home meant nothing. Pirates willingly joined the circus on that play.

Would a player even know how to utilize a scuffed baseball in this day and age?

Ding ding! In my experience, it's a mix of this and coach experience. Can't go to the ump that said Out because the runner was. That said, the savvier coaches go to the other ump on a fishing expedition trying to get them to slip up and say the wrong thing. The level and time of year (and of course coaches' demeanor) will influence my level of patience. 12U All Stars / know it all coach* - nope. 10U coach who volunteered so kids could play and self admittedly has no clue? "Yeah, ok coach. Here's how this works" (big part of why I do LL). * Yeah coach, remember that pregame debate on the out of dugout bucket? Pick your battles next time.

2 outs. 😶 Every Pirate involved had a baseball IQ of 0 on that play.