Infield Fly situation - SS can't locate ball

[udbrky]

Had a discussion on this with a partner today, who had this in summer college ball, and thought it was interesting.

R1, R2, R3, 0 outs

Ball popped up, SS starts to settle under it in the dirt, but then is making it clear that he cannot find it - verbally and physically. Ball lands almost hitting him.

IF or no?

[maven]

2 hours ago, udbrky said:

Ball popped up, SS starts to settle under it in the dirt...

That's all we need. 100% IFF, every time, all day, easy as pie.

The rule states that it's an IFF when the ball CAN be caught with ordinary effort, not that it IS caught with ordinary effort.

[udbrky]

1 minute ago, maven said:

That's all we need. 100% IFF, every time, all day, easy as pie.

The rule states that it's an IFF when the ball CAN be caught with ordinary effort, not that it IS caught with ordinary effort.

That was our discussion - whether when he loses it, if it makes it without ordinary effort. 

[maven]

1 minute ago, udbrky said:

That was our discussion - whether when he loses it, if it makes it without ordinary effort. 

And you're missing my point. What he actually does is irrelevant. It's not a question of whether he can screw up a popup, or whether he can make an easy play difficult.

A college-age F6 CAN field a popup over the infield with ordinary effort. IFF, period.

Think of it this way: we call it an "infield fly" because it's about the ball, not about the fielder.

This is an easy, easy call. I recommend not making it difficult.

[Mister B]

I believe that's the point of the IFF. What's to stop a fielder from claiming he lost it? 

Recently watched a game where the umpire never signaled it and called it after the catch, causing the R3 to stop. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, udbrky said:

That was our discussion - whether when he loses it, if it makes it without ordinary effort. 

Suppose it was NOT called (or judged to be an infield fly) -- then F6 picks up the ball and it's an easy double (or triple) play.  That's what the rule is designed to prevent -- so it must be called.

[udbrky]

Yeah, I thought about it more and my thought was that as it was catchable usually, then it's IFF. 

[GPblue]

On 9/17/2016 at 8:53 PM, maven said:

And you're missing my point. What he actually does is irrelevant. It's not a question of whether he can screw up a popup, or whether he can make an easy play difficult.

A college-age F6 CAN field a popup over the infield with ordinary effort. IFF, period.

Think of it this way: we call it an "infield fly" because it's about the ball, not about the fielder.

This is an easy, easy call. I recommend not making it difficult.

That's a great explanation Maven.  An example would be on a super windy day.  The ball could look routine, then a sudden gust pushes into non routine....

[maven]

29 minutes ago, GPblue said:

That's a great explanation Maven.  An example would be on a super windy day.  The ball could look routine, then a sudden gust pushes into non routine....

You raise a good point: weather and wind can change what counts as ordinary effort (for that level).

The play in question (as I understand it) involved a routine play that the player screwed up. That's IFF.

If the wind is making it a huge challenge to track the ball, that would NOT be a routine play, and it might not be an IFF. I had one such where a "popup to F4" was caught by F8 moving back (he had take a few steps in and then read the ball). Not an infield fly.

[udbrky]

I texted him and told him that the more I thought about it, the more I thought IFF. He did say it was really sunny, but it's not like they're 12.

I was doing a game a couple weeks ago and this ball is hit to what appears to be right-center and got caught in the wind and landed about 5' foul down the 1b line.

Windy City indeed.

[maineump]

1 hour ago, maven said:

You raise a good point: weather and wind can change what counts as ordinary effort (for that level).

The play in question (as I understand it) involved a routine play that the player screwed up. That's IFF.

If the wind is making it a huge challenge to track the ball, that would NOT be a routine play, and it might not be an IFF. I had one such where a "popup to F4" was caught by F8 moving back (he had take a few steps in and then read the ball). Not an infield fly.

This point is exactly why we don't call it too early or maybe not even indicate it until the ball is caught or dropped. If we decide it is an infield fly, there is really no limit on when we call it.

It should never be called until the ball is on the way down, and on a windy day - wait until the fielder is camped to call it.

[Mister B]

I would think that you'd want to call it while it's in the air. If we wait until it's caught or dropped we are screwing up the runners. For example, R1 has a couple step lead off waiting for the catch or no-catch. If that ball hits the ground with no call, he's off to 2B, if we then call IFF, then he needs to tag-up. But by this time, he's only 2 steps from 2B. We've just hung him out. Pretty much what the rule is designed not to do. 

If it's low, I just call it right away, if it's twice as high as the backstop or higher, I'll call it right as it's coming down. If it's drifting and close enough to one of the lines, I'll add "..., if fair."

[Ump29]

3 hours ago, Mister B said:

I would think that you'd want to call it while it's in the air. If we wait until it's caught or dropped we are screwing up the runners. For example, R1 has a couple step lead off waiting for the catch or no-catch. If that ball hits the ground with no call, he's off to 2B, if we then call IFF, then he needs to tag-up. But by this time, he's only 2 steps from 2B. We've just hung him out. Pretty much what the rule is designed not to do. 

If it's low, I just call it right away, if it's twice as high as the backstop or higher, I'll call it right as it's coming down. If it's drifting and close enough to one of the lines, I'll add "..., if fair."

  " if we then call IFF,then he needs to tag-up "   ??  Why ?

[Mister B]

3 hours ago, Ump29 said:

  " if we then call IFF,then he needs to tag-up "   ??  Why ?

My bad, no need to tag up. I remember the rule saying "regardless of whether the ball is caught or dropped..." but that only affects the force.

 

I still need more time in the oven. 

[maineump]

13 hours ago, Mister B said:

I would think that you'd want to call it while it's in the air. If we wait until it's caught or dropped we are screwing up the runners. For example, R1 has a couple step lead off waiting for the catch or no-catch. If that ball hits the ground with no call, he's off to 2B, if we then call IFF, then he needs to tag-up. But by this time, he's only 2 steps from 2B. We've just hung him out. Pretty much what the rule is designed not to do. 

If it's low, I just call it right away, if it's twice as high as the backstop or higher, I'll call it right as it's coming down. If it's drifting and close enough to one of the lines, I'll add "..., if fair."

We haven't done anything wrong - the offense is responsible to know the rule

How high are the backstops? Remember it can't be a line drive or 'looper' to be IFF. You should always call the ball as it is coming down.

[Kevin_K]

On 9/19/2016 at 6:02 PM, Mister B said:

I would think that you'd want to call it while it's in the air.

You are correct. You would want to. However, sometimes circumstances prevent that.

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

You are correct. You would want to. However, sometimes circumstances prevent that.

I never had those circumstances in all my years of umpiring.

[Kevin_K]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I never had those circumstances in all my years of umpiring.

Neither have I....... yet.

[maineump]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

I never had those circumstances in all my years of umpiring.

I have had to call it at the glove because of a wind gust, but I have not had to call it on the ground yet. Just don't call it too early.

[GPblue]

14 hours ago, maineump said:

I have had to call it at the glove because of a wind gust, but I have not had to call it on the ground yet. Just don't call it too early.

That's usually my biggest critique of my partner in our post game when they are newer guys and we get an IFF.  They jump it WAY too quick.  It's like pulling teeth in my summer groups to get guys to slow down on IFF..........well all calls.

[grayhawk]

I called an IFF on Sunday where F6 made the catch on the run (not a full sprint, but a brisk jog).  He never camped under it, but F1 could have easily backed up off the mound to make the catch.  As Maven said, the fly ball was right in the middle of the infield, and high enough that an infielder at that level COULD have made the catch with ordinary effort.  The fact that THIS team made it look more difficult wasn't relevant.