Getting Help

[Jeff C.]

I thought I would post this and get y'all's opinion. This happened tonight in our JV game. Batter bunts and R2 heads to third. Catcher throws to third and BU calls safe. DC wants BU to get help, which he does. PU first says he didn't see anything (he was still near the plate). DC asks again and then the umpires conference. After the conference, the PU calls the runner out. My question is, should the BU ask for help? He was in position and did make the original call. Of course after the switch of calls, our coach was juuuuuust a little unhappy. He stayed calm and argued his position. This seems to me a bit of throwing your partner under the bus. Was it "proper" for the umpires to conference like this?

[LMSANS]

In general, it's the BU call. If he wants to sooth the coach by talking to his partner, that can be done but rarely and privately. The Bu and PU get together and then the BU still makes the call. Whether it stays the same or he changes it based on the additional information furnished by the PU. The coach should not be making the request directly and the PU should not be responding to his partner's call.

Personally, I'm not going for help if I felt that I saw everything. If there is a chance I was blocked out or missed soemthing then I will consider if asked nicely.

[willv28]

LMSANS has it right. I agree, the BU should have made the call and it was his call to change. If he felt he saw everything then that's that no reason to converse over it if the BU felt he had nothing obstructing him or wasn't at an angle that the PU might have seen something he didn't. After the first conversation that should have been it. I wonder what changed between when the PU saw nothing and having an out the second time.

I think we're close to having the coaches in our LL and local towns scared to come out to appeal calls. I think either they don't know they can, they just accept it, or that they're afraid to make fools of themselves (we don't show them up, but they're usually wrong).

[Jeff C.]

That's my thoughts as well. When the DC made his request, I thought maybe he was arguing some type of illegal slide. I would of liked to known what changed during the conf. as well for the PU to change the call.

[therefump]

I think we're close to having the coaches in our LL and local towns scared to come out to appeal calls. I think either they don't know they can, they just accept it, or that they're afraid to make fools of themselves (we don't show them up, but they're usually wrong).

I don't think there's anything wrong when the Umpires ask each other for help. I don't think a coach can point to the non-calling umpire and "appeal". LMSANS is correct in saying it should be done out of ear shot of coaches only if you have doubts.

Lastly, if your attitude comes across ".....but they're usually wrong." then of course they're going to be less likely to ask for help. Just an observation, not throwing stones.

[mstaylor]

I thought I would post this and get y'all's opinion. This happened tonight in our JV game. Batter bunts and R2 heads to third. Catcher throws to third and BU calls safe. DC wants BU to get help, which he does. PU first says he didn't see anything (he was still near the plate). DC asks again and then the umpires conference. After the conference, the PU calls the runner out. My question is, should the BU ask for help? He was in position and did make the original call. Of course after the switch of calls, our coach was juuuuuust a little unhappy. He stayed calm and argued his position. This seems to me a bit of throwing your partner under the bus. Was it "proper" for the umpires to conference like this?

Absolutely no way, no how should he ask the PU anything. It is his call to make, to keep and his conversation to shut down. The only help the PU could possibly give him is a dropped ball on the tag, but the runner was called safe so that has no bearing.

Going to your partner to make the coach happy is a horrible idea. There are times to check but this is not it.

[noumpere]

I thought I would post this and get y'all's opinion. This happened tonight in our JV game. Batter bunts and R2 heads to third. Catcher throws to third and BU calls safe. DC wants BU to get help, which he does. PU first says he didn't see anything (he was still near the plate). DC asks again and then the umpires conference. After the conference, the PU calls the runner out. My question is, should the BU ask for help? He was in position and did make the original call. Of course after the switch of calls, our coach was juuuuuust a little unhappy. He stayed calm and argued his position. This seems to me a bit of throwing your partner under the bus. Was it "proper" for the umpires to conference like this?

If this was just a normal "throw-catch-slide-tag" play, then there's no way that BU should ask for help or that PU should give help. BU owes PU at least half of his or her game check, if BU isn't going to make the calls.

In fact, I can't think of an example where the "safe" call would ever be reveresed.

If BU called "out" and PU saw the ball on the ground, then that out call could be reversed.

[PeteBooth]

I thought I would post this and get y'all's opinion. This happened tonight in our JV game. Batter bunts and R2 heads to third. Catcher throws to third and BU calls safe. DC wants BU to get help, which he does. PU first says he didn't see anything (he was still near the plate). DC asks again and then the umpires conference. After the conference, the PU calls the runner out. My question is, should the BU ask for help? He was in position and did make the original call. Of course after the switch of calls, our coach was juuuuuust a little unhappy. He stayed calm and argued his position. This seems to me a bit of throwing your partner under the bus. Was it "proper" for the umpires to conference like this?

I echo Michael

On THIS play it is the BU's Period and the BU should NOT even entertain the coach.

Batter bunts and R2 heads to third.

The PU's job

1. Make certain that the batter bunted the ball Legally (ie one foot was not completely out of the box when he bunted)

2. fair/ Foul

3. Be in position should F2 throw to F3 to call a possible 45ft. lane violation

In a nutshell the PU does not have a good angle on this play.

SUMMARY: Make your OWN calls and on plays such as this OP do not even enertain the coach.

It's a simple : Skip he's safe - END of discussion

Pete Booth

[jjb]

I echo these comments: if I've got the angle/distance and sure of the call, I'm not asking for help. But, I will admit to the following conversation occasionally:

Coach: "Hey, Blue, can you get some help on that call?"

Me: "Sure"

(I pull my partner aside, out of hearing)

Me: "So, where're we going afterward?"

Partner: "Varsity Club?"

Me: "OK, but I can only stay for a couple"

Partner: "Works for me"

Me: (announces) "The call stands"

Coach: "Thanks Blue"

Me: "No problem"

[BrianC14]

I echo these comments: if I've got the angle/distance and sure of the call, I'm not asking for help. But, I will admit to the following conversation occasionally:

Coach: "Hey, Blue, can you get some help on that call?"

Me: "Sure"

(I pull my partner aside, out of hearing)

Me: "So, where're we going afterward?"

Partner: "Varsity Club?"

Me: "OK, but I can only stay for a couple"

Partner: "Works for me"

Me: (announces) "The call stands"

Coach: "Thanks Blue"

Me: "No problem"

Whatever works for you, I guess, but I find this approach to be:

a) a waste of time; and'

dishonest.

By caving in to the coach's request, you've left the door open for him to ask for another one - be it in that game or in his next game. Doing this makes the coach think that you're actually discussing the call, when in reality, you are not. While it may be a clever way to get around telling the coach that this is your call to make and no help is needed, it's just a way for you to kick the problem down the road. (The problem being, of course, that Mr. Coach now thinks he can ask for 'help' on any call at any time).

I've had my share of coaches asking me to get help on calls that are mine, and I think it's better umpiring for we, as umpires, to set them straight: we're not running a democracy out there, where everything is subject to conventions. If you've got the call, then make it, and stick up for it.

[mstaylor]

I agree with Brian 100%. Going to your partner to make a coach happy is flat wrong. If you know you have it and more importantly, your partner will have no help for you don't ask.

I have seen a worse thing happen, the calling makes a call like in the OP and isn't sure, so he goes to his partner. His partner says I have nothing, then the calling steps away and reverses the call. It makes him look bad because it looks like he doesn't have a clue. Then it makes his partner look like he changed the call when he did no such thing.

I understand that there is a push to get together and sort things out. While that is a fine idea, it only works in a small percentage of plays. If there is a rule question, either what applies or how to enforce, by all means get together. There are some actual plays you can get together on but most can not.

[willv28]

I don't think there's anything wrong when the Umpires ask each other for help. I don't think a coach can point to the non-calling umpire and "appeal". LMSANS is correct in saying it should be done out of ear shot of coaches only if you have doubts.

Lastly, if your attitude comes across ".....but they're usually wrong." then of course they're going to be less likely to ask for help. Just an observation, not throwing stones.

I think you took it the wrong way. We ask for help when we need it. But in the occasion where not all umpires had the luxury of looking at something the same way, and it is definite cause for the coach to come out and ask they get help. They often don't. We don't believe if the umpire that made the call didn't ask for help that any other umpire call a conference unless there was a complete misapplied rule.

Like many LL most of the coaches are just dads wanting to coach their kids. So, many of them don't even understand, some don't make a fuss over anything and some just except anything that happens, then get mad later.

They seem to come out at the worst time. Usually because they're upset something didn't go their way. So the result is the calls are almost never changed because they were without a doubt correct calls to begin with. But if there was the possibility that something might have happened, they keep their mouths shut. So, they obviously don't understand the rules, I'd expect them to come out both when they're just mad about something and when they felt there really was an incorrect call.

They're usually wrong isn't an attitude, but as a result of their behavior. They don't want to have their egos bruised to they just sit there. Only coming out when they're too upset. We don't do anything other than talk to them. But being incorrect for any reason is a blow to their ego so they have pretty much stopped coming out in our league.

Like yesterday we had R1 and R3, 2 out. R1 tries to steal on a passed ball. Stops dead in his tracks halfway to 2nd as the ball came right back to catcher. He goes on, the ball is thrown to 2nd, he's caught in a rundown. R3 tries for home. R1 gets tagged for the 3rd out. The time play ended up being very close on whether R3 made home or not. Ruling was tag was made before R3 touched HP. Umpire was in doubt in conference, but the conference wasn't called right away. Coach did nothing, said nothing even though he was 100% sure the run scored. THEN he got mad after a conference and that's when he voiced that. I didn't see the R3, I was busy watching the run down in front of me. The other BU base umpire was also watching it from the other side. So that's why the call stood, no new information, we just talked about what the timing would be so he was sure then that was that. If we hadn't called a conference the coach wouldn't have done or said anything.

[treedog24]

In this OP, the call is clearly the BU and in no way should be overturned by the PU unless the ball was dropped and clearly seen by the PU but not the BU. The BU just needs to man up and take the call.

I know a guy I used to umpire with and who also coached. He was known for attempting to get umpires to make calls trying to get one to go his way. This sound like one of his tatics. He mainly did it to get his team going. I remember one game I did for him and he wanted an appeal of the Runner missing 3rd. I was PU and called the kid safe and he ask me to get help from my BU and I told him "no, that's my call and I was watching the whole way." After the game he admitted to me what he was attempting to do.

Bottom line on a judgement call an umpire has to stick to their guns and only ask for help if the coach states something like "he dropped the ball.":2cents:

[huntbomb72]

The proper way for a coach to ask for help is to ask the umpire who made the call, BU in this case, if he can get help on something specific like a pulled foot or dropped ball.

To ask for help on just the judgement of safe/out is ridiculous and the BU umpire should have responded with something like "I saw the play coach. My call."

If the coach says he pulled his foot or dropped the ball and asks for help and the BU thinks he may have been blocked out. He should ask for info from his partner. After getting info from his partner, away from coaches and players, the BU still makes the call.

[jjb]

There's a perception among certain umpires that, under NO circumstances is he EVER going to ask for help, and under NO circumstances will he stand for his partner EVER coming to him.

On the other hand, I was told at a National Umpire (ASA) School by my Instructor, that I should go for help ANYTIME a Coach asks me to, no matter what the call was.

I think either end of the argument is short-sighted and detrimental to what we're trying to accomplish out there. You know when there's a chance you missed something, and, in those circumstances, asking for help makes you a better umpire, not a worse one. IMHO.

[Mr Umpire]

There's a perception among certain umpires that, under NO circumstances is he EVER going to ask for help, and under NO circumstances will he stand for his partner EVER coming to him.

On the other hand, I was told at a National Umpire (ASA) School by my Instructor, that I should go for help ANYTIME a Coach asks me to, no matter what the call was.

I think either end of the argument is short-sighted and detrimental to what we're trying to accomplish out there. You know when there's a chance you missed something, and, in those circumstances, asking for help makes you a better umpire, not a worse one. IMHO.

I agree. There are too many archaic umpires(and I won't drop any names from other sites) who think an umpire should never ask for help. If the umpire feels he saw everything, then do not ask for help regardless of what the coach says. If there is any doubt and it is not about judgment, then ask for help, i.e. blocked view of a dropped ball. But, just b/c the coach says "Can you ask for help?" does not constitute a reason to ask. He has to say the magic words of he dropped the ball or something before I consider asking. And, then, I would have to have some doubt in my mind that maybe he did.

If I don't have any doubt or the coach doesn't give me a good enough reason to ask, then I won't ask. And, I definitely won't ask if it is about my judgment of the play. I just think there has to be some middle ground between when to ask and when not to ask.

[mstaylor]

There's a perception among certain umpires that, under NO circumstances is he EVER going to ask for help, and under NO circumstances will he stand for his partner EVER coming to him.

On the other hand, I was told at a National Umpire (ASA) School by my Instructor, that I should go for help ANYTIME a Coach asks me to, no matter what the call was.

I think never asking for help is not taught anywhere. I am a proponent of asking very little and only in certain circumstances. Never asking is crazy.

Your ASA instructor is an idiot to teach to ask on everything, no matter what. I understand there are differences between softball and baseball but this is an area that should be the same.

[PeteBooth]

I agree. There are too many archaic umpires(and I won't drop any names from other sites) who think an umpire should never ask for help. If the umpire feels he saw everything, then do not ask for help regardless of what the coach says. If there is any doubt and it is not about judgment, then ask for help, i.e. blocked view of a dropped ball. But, just b/c the coach says "Can you ask for help?" does not constitute a reason to ask. He has to say the magic words of he dropped the ball or something before I consider asking. And, then, I would have to have some doubt in my mind that maybe he did.

An English professor told me to stay away from using FINITE words such as NEVER and ALWAYS as they will get you into trouble.

The PROBLEM with asking for help.

1. When do I ask for help?

ie: BEFORE I make the call or AFTER I make the call.

if I ask my partner BEFORE I make the call I have now thrown

my partner "under the bus" especially if he has no clue

2. How often do I ask for help?

ie; Every Banger that I have and we have all had those games where

just about every call call was a banger

3. Are there multiple runners meaning if I do change the call what are the ramifications.

Example of number 3. Game tied bottom of 7 HT up with runners at the corners. Ground ball to F4 who attempts a tag on R1.

Let's FREEZE

This call is crutial because it DETERMINES F4's next move.

If the BU signals safe NO TAG chances are F4 will fire home to get R3 or the game is over. If the BU signals OUT then F4 will simply flip to F3 to get the DP and send the game into extras.

You rule safe on the initial tag and F4 fires home where R3 is safe. the coach wants you to get help. You ask for help and your partner says Yes F4 tagged him - Now what

that's why for the most part in a 2 person SYSTEM each umpire should make THEIR OWN calls PERIOD. It's not archaic but smart. Once you start asking for help then get prepared to do it all game long.

Asking for help should be far and few between not the NORM.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

The other problem with asking is in a two man system, many times your partner has other responsibilities, he may not even be looking. With multiple runners there very few things you can ask about. A boundery question or a dropped ball on a tag is about it. 90% of the time most questions are going to be about rules not calls.

[huntbomb72]

Always remember that asking for help is just asking your partner for extra information i.e. a pulled foot at 1B. This conversation should normally take place away from everyone else that way if your partner tells you he/she didn't see anything, no one is the wiser and your original call stands.

[BT_Blue]

A standard out/safe call is not one of the 7 reasons to get help from your partner. from what I understand from the OP I would not get help unless for some reason I was blocked out from the play... In other words, this is my call not his and Im sticking to it.

[LMSANS]

A standard out/safe call is not one of the 7 reasons to get help from your partner. from what I understand from the OP I would not get help unless for some reason I was blocked out from the play... In other words, this is my call not his and Im sticking to it.

Oh, please share the list.:wow:

[BT_Blue]

Now mind you Ive been working college ball so these are the guidelines I was talking about.

NCAA rule book Appendix E secton C:

1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul

2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground-rule double

3) Cases in which a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.

4) Cases in which a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.

5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment becahs he did not see a ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.

6) Spectator interference plays.

7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber

It continues on but that is the long of the short of it. You can see the whole of Appendix E in the NCAA section on E-Officials

[therefump]

Whatever works for you, I guess, but I find this approach to be:

a) a waste of time; and'

dishonest.

By caving in to the coach's request, you've left the door open for him to ask for another one - be it in that game or in his next game. Doing this makes the coach think that you're actually discussing the call, when in reality, you are not. While it may be a clever way to get around telling the coach that this is your call to make and no help is needed, it's just a way for you to kick the problem down the road. (The problem being, of course, that Mr. Coach now thinks he can ask for 'help' on any call at any time).

I've had my share of coaches asking me to get help on calls that are mine, and I think it's better umpiring for we, as umpires, to set them straight: we're not running a democracy out there, where everything is subject to conventions. If you've got the call, then make it, and stick up for it.

I totally agree. Never, never open a door to questioning your credibility. Plus, someway, somehow this will come to hurt you. Coaches are not stupid.....well, most aren't..........well, oh, nevermind.