Tagging Up & Appeal

[Jack_Wick]

Good evening to everyone! 
The other night some friends and I had a discussion about catch play. Since many doubts have arisen, I hope you can help me.
Ok, let's go.
OBR Rules.

CASE 1:
We have 0 out. A fly ball is hit, so R3 leave early 3B, cross home, and only after the ball is caught so? Will the run be valid? Or what?

A friend of mine said that the run would be valid so the runner could go back to the bench. I think instead if R3 leaves early 3B, cross home, then he must return to third if the fly is caught — in order to keep from being called out for leaving early, am I right?
So he must return to 3B in correct reverse order, passing and touching HB first, right? 
However, it would be a truly desperate situation because R3 could be put out with an appeal to 3B or via a tag wherever he is, even if he were on HB, correct? But I don't think the appeal could be made even in HB, correct?

From here we move on to another situation.
CASE 2:
0 out. R1 on 1B, I'm well aware that this is a situation bordering on reality, but it's just to better understand the rule. A fly ball is hit > R1 starts from 1B and reaches 3B. The ball is caught, so he must retouch his original base. But what does "original base" mean? It means the base TOP or time of the catch?
I mean R1 must retouch 1B (time of pitch base) or, for example, 2B (base legally touched before the catch)?

CASE 3:
Tagging up is an appeal but it's not a force out, with all that that entails, right?
So how long can the defense appeal? Let's imagine CASE 1 above. R3 has now gone to the bench, so he can't touch 3B again, assuming I'm right. In this case, can the defense appeal by throwing the ball to 3B, or even to HB?
The pitcher is on the mound. How long can he appeal? Until he puts already together his hands or until he starts moving his foot?
Once on the mound, if the pitcher starts moving his foot, he can only make a pickoff (or a feint) or a pitch to home, but he can no longer throw the ball for an appeal, right? That is, how does  the pitcher make an appeal on the mound? 

I read and knew it could be done like this: The pitcher disengages from the rubber and then he can either throw it to a fielder who will appeal, or he can bring the ball to the base himself, right?
I also recently read that the pitcher can appeal without disengaging the rubber. (https://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rule-myths) N42. 
A friend of mine told me that you can only appeal without disengaging the rubber if you are in wind-up position, but it would be a balk if the pitcher were in set position, right?
I know, however, that in any position, whether set or windup, the pitcher can appeal by throwing the ball to 1B, 2B, or 3B, without disengaging from the rubber, as if it were a pickoff. So he can step, without disengaging first, and throw to any 1B, 2B, or 3B to appeal. But I don't think this can be done with an appeal to homebase, or not?

Another curiosity: would appealing without disengaging the rubber also be legal for appealing to Homebase? But how is this done in this particular case?

Does the pitcher steps and throw normally to homebase?
I believe, however, that to appeal to home base, the pitcher must step off the rubber and only then can he throw it to a fielder or carry it himself. Is that correct?

Thanks to everyone who will help me.

[Velho]

Case 1: R3 can do whatever they want. 😉 If they want to avoid risk of being called out they need to touch home plate and then 3B before the defense tags them or appeals at 3B. The run will stand until R3 retouches HP to return to 3B or a proper appeal is made.

Case 2: TOP. R1 must retouch 2B and then 1B or be subject to out on a proper appeal.

Case 3: Appeal must be done before the next pitch or play or, for an advantageous 4th out, before all defensive players leave fair territory. The should* disengage and then execute the appeal.

* "Has to" I think but will leave the scenario I'm not thinking of to others smarter than I

[Jack_Wick]

56 minutes ago, Velho said:

The run will stand until R3 retouches HP to return to 3B or a proper appeal is made.

The run will stand only if R3 goes first to HP > retouch 3B and finally touch again HP, right?

56 minutes ago, Velho said:

Case 3: Appeal must be done before the next pitch or play or, for an advantageous 4th out, before all defensive players leave fair territory. The should* disengage and then execute the appeal.

So appeal without disengaging the rubber (like pickoff) is legal both with the set position and with the windup position, but only for appeals to 1B, 2B, and 3B, correct? Instead, towards HP, the pitcher can only step off from rubber, correct? He could not throw to HP for an appeal, correct?

Instead, the appeal can be done even after the pitcher has brought his hands together (like a pickoff), however if after he brings his hand together he starts to move his foot as a pitching motion he will only have to pitch to home, right?

In short, an appeal without disengaging from rubber is regulated as if it were a pickoff, correct?

 

For example, a left-handed pitcher can lift his leg and then throw to 1B to make an appeal, correct? But once he lifts his leg, he can no longer appeal to 3B, correct?

 

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

2 hours ago, Velho said:

The run will stand until R3 retouches HP to return to 3B or a proper appeal is made.

The run will stand only if R3 goes first to HP > retouch 3B and finally touch again HP, right?

Or if it is never appealed.

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Case 3: Appeal must be done before the next pitch or play or, for an advantageous 4th out, before all defensive players leave fair territory. The should* disengage and then execute the appeal.

So appeal without disengaging the rubber (like pickoff) is legal both with the set position and with the windup position, but only for appeals to 1B, 2B, and 3B, correct?

Correct. As from MLBUM below.

Though, unsolicited coaching advice, I'd teach properly stepping off to avoid chance of it being called a balk (which would preclude a subsequent appeal).

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

 

 

For example, a left-handed pitcher can lift his leg and then throw to 1B to make an appeal, correct? But once he lifts his leg, he can no longer appeal to 3B, correct?

 

 

You have to distinguish between "mound" and "pitcher's plate" (rubber). The pitcher only has to take the rubber to make the ball live. So if your LH F1 took the rubber, umpire put ball in play, and F1 threw the ball to 1B for a legal appeal the defense could then throw the ball to 3B if they were appealing there. F3 could throw it there. Yes a throw from the rubber has to satisfy stepping to the base and most pitchers are coached to step off to appeal.

[Jack_Wick]

However, if the pitcher has to make an appeal at home plate, then he will be forced to step off the rubber, right? The appeal at home plate is the exception, so you can't make an appeal towards home plate without stepping off the rubber, right?

 

Small situation: Pitcher throws to 2B to make an appeal on 2B, but in the meantime R3 tries to steal homebase, so the fielder decides to try to put R3 out. Could the appeal to 2B then be made after this attempt to put R3 ou

t?

[Velho]

46 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

However, if the pitcher has to make an appeal at home plate, then he will be forced to step off the rubber, right? The appeal at home plate is the exception, so you can't make an appeal towards home plate without stepping off the rubber, right?

If the batter is in the box a throw home from the rubber would be ruled a pitch. Possibly with the batter out of the box it would be judged a throw for the appeal.

48 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

Small situation: Pitcher throws to 2B to make an appeal on 2B, but in the meantime R3 tries to steal homebase, so the fielder decides to try to put R3 out. Could the appeal to 2B then be made after this attempt to put R3 ou

t?

Assuming the pitcher is not making the appeal as part of the original continuous action, that would be an intervening play and the defense can no longer appeal.

This is the Tucker play from the 2021 post season

https://www.closecallsports.com/2021/09/losing-appeal-astros-draw-d-backs-into.html

[Jack_Wick]

16 hours ago, Velho said:

Possibly with the batter out of the box it would be judged a throw for the appeal.

 

No, I don't think so. Let's start with an assumption: here we have a scenario in which the pitcher is engaged at the rubber (pitcher's plate). So I believe that in this case, even if there were no batter present, a throw to HB would still be considered a balk (for quick pitch). What do you think?

 

Instead, if the pitcher steps off the rubber first, then in that case he could throw the ball for an appeal to HB (or even bring the ball there himself).

 

16 hours ago, Velho said:

Assuming the pitcher is not making the appeal as part of the original continuous action, that would be an intervening play and the defense can no longer appeal.

Ok, so we can summarize it this way:

A - Pitcher, engaged at the rubber (without stepping off first), throws to 1B, 2B or 3B for an appeal (here the appeal would have all the rules of the pickoff): Valid appeal.

B - Pitcher, engaged at the rubber (without stepping off first), throws to HB (with the batter present) for an appeal: Balk, right to appeal lost.

C - Pitcher, engaged at the rubber (without stepping off first), throws to HB (with the batter absent) for an appeal: Balk for quick pitch, right to appeal lost.

D - Pitcher, engaged al rubber > steps off first > throws to 1B/2B/3B/HB (or bringing the ball there himself) for an appeal: Valid appeal.

 

CASE 4:

We have possible appeals at 2B and 3B. Pitcher engaged at the rubber. 

A. Pitcher throws the ball to a fielder for an appeal to 2B, but the fielder believes it's better to appeal to 3B first and therefore throws the ball to the other fielder at 3B. In this case, would the appeal to 3B be legal? 

Can the pitcher then appeal again by throwing the ball to 2B? 

B. Or can the same 3B throw, without first passing the pitcher, to 2B to appeal there as well?

C. Pitcher on his plate, the appeal should be made for a missed 2B, so the pitcher (engaged on the rubber) could not throw the ball to 3B and then from there a fielder throws the ball to 2B where the appeal should be made, correct?

D. Couldn't the pitcher engaged on the rubber throw the ball to 3B and then a fielder throws or makes appeal to HB himself from there?

E. The  same of C and D but with the pitcher disengaded from rubber (pitcher's plate)?

F. The pitcher engaged in the rubber throws to 3B, but the fielder touches it but fails to catch it. The ball, still in the legal field, is then caught by another fielder, who either throws it to another fielder who will appeal to 3B, or he himself offers the ball to 3B to appeal. Is the appeal valid?

16 hours ago, Velho said:

This is the Tucker play from the 2021 post season

Ok so two more cases:

A. Pitcher throws the ball to 2B for appeal but at the same time R3 starts and goes towards HB, then fielder 2B throws the ball (or he chases himself R3 ) towards R3, whether he manages to get out or not, in that case the appeal can no longer be made?

B. The same but in this case we have the pitcher steps off and he goes towards 2B to appeal but then throws to 3B to stop R3 (or he himself tries to chase R3), regardless of whether they managed to eliminate R3 or not, after this the appeal can no longer be done, right?

 

In summary:

A- Pitcher engaged > steps off > appeal made > pickoff attempts: appeal valid. But would you have the right to make another appeal?

B- Pitcher engaged > steps off > appeal made > another appeal made > pickoff attempts: valid appeals, but no more?

C- Pitcher engaged > steps off > previously intended to appeal but not yet done so > pickoff attempts: lost the right to make any further appeals?

 

Thank you to all

[Velho]

On 9/9/2025 at 7:13 AM, Jack_Wick said:

No, I don't think so. 

I said "possibly"

An inefficient path to an appeal doesn't preclude an appeal. Coming out of noncontinuous action, an intervening play (like your Tucker A & B) removes ability to appeal.

Throwing to a base with a runner from the rubber is legal but there is a risk of it being deemed a pickoff attempt. 

[Jack_Wick]

On 9/9/2025 at 5:07 PM, Velho said:

I said "possibly"

I don't think that could ever be possible. The rules either exist or they don't.

As from MLBUM below:

"The pitcher is not required to step off the rubber prior to throwing to a base to make appeal."

Very sibylline as usual, but can an appeal like this also be made to HB? Or only to 1B-2B-3B?

 

On 9/9/2025 at 5:07 PM, Velho said:

An inefficient path to an appeal doesn't preclude an appeal. Coming out of noncontinuous action, an intervening play (like your Tucker A & B) removes ability to appeal.

I also believe this isn't exactly the case. 

So let's imagine a situation like this: 

>Pitcher engaged on the rubber (pitcher's plate) 

>no runners on bases >an appeal can be made at 3B (a runner has inadvertently missed it). 

>So the pitcher, without stepping off the rubber, throws the ball to 1B (but there's no appeal there), but then the fielder catches the ball from there and throws (or carries it himself) to the correct base, i.e., 3B, to make the appeal. Is this a valid appeal?

 

I don't think so. The pitcher, still engaged in the rubber, must necessarily throw only to the base he is appealing to. Correct? Otherwise, as in our case above, it would be a balk (in this case, without runners on base, it would be a ball) according to the following rule: "The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play". 

 

A. So I don't think the pitcher can throw the ball to 1B if the appeal actually has to be made to 3B, right or not?

B. The pitcher also can't throw the ball to 3B (or to 1B) when the appeal should be made to HB, correct?

 

But what would happen in this situation:

There are possible appeals at 2B and 3B. Pitcher engaged at the rubber. 

Pitcher throws the ball to a fielder for an appeal to 2B, but the fielder believes it's better to appeal to 3B first and therefore throws the ball to the other fielder at 3B. In this case, would the appeal to 3B be legal? 

Can the pitcher then appeal again by throwing the ball to 2B? Or can the same 3B throw, without first passing the pitcher, to 2B to appeal there as well? Or is it a balk/ball?

 

This I think it is ok:

The pitcher engaged in the rubber throws to 3B, but the fielder touches it but fails to catch it. The ball, still in the legal field, is then caught by another fielder, who either throws it to another fielder who will appeal to 3B, or he himself offers the ball to 3B to appeal. Is the appeal valid?

 

Finally, two final situations: 

CASE 1: R1 on 1B, possible appeal on 3B.

Pitcher steps off the rubber to throw the ball to 1B, and then fielder throws to 3B. Is the appeal valid? Could the umpire believe it was a pickoff to R1, considering that R1 never moved?

CASE 2: 

No runners on base (so there's no risk the umpire might interpret it as a pickoff attempt), possible appeal on 3B. 

Pitcher steps off the rubber, throws the ball to 1B, then the fielder throws the ball to 3B (or takes it there himself) (or perhaps they make multiple passes between them, i.e., Pitcher throws to 1B, then he passes to 2B, and finally throws the ball to 3B) for an appeal. Is the appeal valid? Or would the umpire not consider the appeal valid because he would be punishing the defense for delaying game?

 

[Velho]

22 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

On 9/9/2025 at 8:07 AM, Velho said:

I said "possibly"

I don't think that could ever be possible. The rules either exist or they don't.

Much evidence to the contrary.

[beerguy55]

59 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

I don't think that could ever be possible. The rules either exist or they don't.

As from MLBUM below:

"The pitcher is not required to step off the rubber prior to throwing to a base to make appeal."

Very sibylline as usual, but can an appeal like this also be made to HB? Or only to 1B-2B-3B?

At some point you need to use the four inches of real estate between your ears and not depend on everything to be spelled out.

A throw to home plate while touching the rubber would be a pitch. The batter hitting it would be an understandable and legal action.  Now, if it happened while the batter was out of the box the umpire could use said rule to defend his decision to allow an appeal.

If you're unable to contextualize what is happening and make a common sense decision, based on the spirit of the rule if the letter of the rule is contradictory, you're in the wrong line of work.

Now I understand there are going to be people on some points of the autism spectrum who are going to take things literally, and not know how to resolve conflicts, but that's unavoidable.  The scenarios you raise are either very rare, outright ridiculous, or will never happen, practically speaking.

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

CASE 1: R1 on 1B, possible appeal on 3B.

Pitcher steps off the rubber to throw the ball to 1B, and then fielder throws to 3B. Is the appeal valid? Could the umpire believe it was a pickoff to R1, considering that R1 never moved?

Unless there's a potential appeal at first a reasonable umpire would consider this a pickoff attempt (and if R1 never moved why wouldn't F3 tag him?), negating the appeal at third.  

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

CASE 2: 

No runners on base (so there's no risk the umpire might interpret it as a pickoff attempt), possible appeal on 3B. 

Pitcher steps off the rubber, throws the ball to 1B, then the fielder throws the ball to 3B (or takes it there himself) (or perhaps they make multiple passes between them, i.e., Pitcher throws to 1B, then he passes to 2B, and finally throws the ball to 3B) for an appeal. Is the appeal valid? Or would the umpire not consider the appeal valid because he would be punishing the defense for delaying game?

Delaying the game is not a condition that negates an appeal.  Since there's no runner, there's no play.  As an example, on a fly ball to the outfield, where R3 leaves early, F8 could throw the ball to the infield, who then throw the ball around the horn, as defenses do when they get an out with no runners on base, and then decide to throw to third to appeal R3.  There's no rule-based, nor common sense, reason to negate the appeal.  Any effort to do so is using the rule book to create problems, not solutions.

And yes, in the ridiculous scenario of a pitcher throwing to the wrong base while touching the rubber, with no runners on base, you could call a balk.  Or you could interpret it as an obvious appeal (why else would the pitcher throw to an empty base with no runners anywhere), and allow it to complete.

And before you decide to break this post into 20 separate quotes with 20 separate responses, don't bother.  I'm not arguing or debating the minutiae, nor going down a rabbit hill with you on scenarios that will only happen in your imagination.

Sometimes you just need to ump.  If umping to you is being pedantic to look for reasons to punish someone, then expect pushback, not respect.

[Jack_Wick]

On 9/11/2025 at 7:55 PM, beerguy55 said:

Unless there's a potential appeal at first a reasonable umpire would consider this a pickoff attempt (and if R1 never moved why wouldn't F3 tag him?), negating the appeal at third.  

I didn't explain myself well. So here we have this situation: R1 is on first base, the potential appeal would be on third base, so the pitcher steps off the rubber, perhaps confused about where the appeal is, throws the ball to the fielder at 1B (where R1 is also, having never moved). Once the fielder at first base receives the ball, he tries to correct the error by throwing the ball to third base, where another fielder will make appeal. In this case, will the appeal at 3B be valid? Or will the umpire think the throw to 1B might have been a pickoff attempt?

 

On 9/11/2025 at 7:55 PM, beerguy55 said:

And yes, in the ridiculous scenario of a pitcher throwing to the wrong base while touching the rubber, with no runners on base, you could call a balk.  Or you could interpret it as an obvious appeal (why else would the pitcher throw to an empty base with no runners anywhere), and allow it to complete.

So both calls could be valid?

 

So pitcher touching the rubber throws to: 

A- There are two possible appeals at both 2B and 3B. He throws to 2B, but the fielder doesn't complete the appeal at 2B and decides it's better to appeal first at 3B and throws there. Once the appeal is made there, he throws to 2B, and they appeal there. Would it be legal?

B- Here we have a potential appeal only on 3B, he throws to 1B, making a mistake, and then the fielder throws to 3B, valid appeal? Could this be both a balk (or a ball with no runners) and a valid appeal?

 

Pitcher without stepping off the rubber how how to appeal?

A. Could he throw to home plate but only if there is no batter there? 

B. Could the pitcher also throw the ball to 3B (or to 1B) to make the appeal to HB, correct?

C. Stepping off the rubber hand do what he wants.

All right?

 

Just two clarifications: 

1. Wouldn't a feint throw, whether with the pitcher touching the rubber or with the pitcher unengaged, constitute a play? So wouldn't this action negate the appeal? That is, the pitcher (or any other fielder) is approaching the runner and feinting a throw toward him. Could he still make a valid appeal afterward?

 

 

Thank you all so much for your patience. 

[The Man in Blue]

I haven’t kept up with this whole thread, but I’ll drop this in anyway…

It’s almost as if terms like “play” need to be defined in the rule book.  I mean, if you are using them as a standard …

[Velho]

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

In this case, will the appeal at 3B be valid? Or will the umpire think the throw to 1B might have been a pickoff attempt?

If the umpire didn't judge it a pickoff attempt it would be a valid appeal.

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

So pitcher touching the rubber throws to: 

A- There are two possible appeals at both 2B and 3B. He throws to 2B, but the fielder doesn't complete the appeal at 2B and decides it's better to appeal first at 3B and throws there. Once the appeal is made there, he throws to 2B, and they appeal there. Would it be legal?

Yes

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

B- Here we have a potential appeal only on 3B, he throws to 1B, making a mistake, and then the fielder throws to 3B, valid appeal?

Yes

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Could this be both a balk (or a ball with no runners) and a valid appeal?

 If called a balk - which could happen if the pitcher throws from the rubber - no appeal can be made.

That's the risk of appealing from the rubber: no one can tell you if it will or won't be called a balk. It might be. Umpires and their rulings are not robotic. It's simply not the way baseball works.

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Pitcher without stepping off the rubber how how to appeal?

A. Could he throw to home plate but only if there is no batter there? 

B. Could the pitcher also throw the ball to 3B (or to 1B) to make the appeal to HB, correct?

C. Stepping off the rubber hand do what he wants.

All right?

A - Likely. B & C - valid appeals.

3 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Just two clarifications: 

1. Wouldn't a feint throw, whether with the pitcher touching the rubber or with the pitcher unengaged, constitute a play?

Feints are explicitly not considered a play (MLBUM).

[jimurrayalterego]

46 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I haven’t kept up with this whole thread, but I’ll drop this in anyway…

It’s almost as if terms like “play” need to be defined in the rule book.  I mean, if you are using them as a standard …

For the purpose of an appeal a balk is defined as a play in the rulebook. An "err" is not called a play but it also precludes an appeal. MLB has defined "play" for us in the MLBUM:

18. PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

Rules 5.06(b)(4)(G), 5.09(c):

The following interpretation of “play or attempted play” applies to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 5.06(b)(4)(G)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 5.09(c)): A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.

EXAMPLES: A play or attempted play: (1) Runners on first and second, ground ball to the shortstop, who makes a swipe at the runner from second but misses and then throws beyond first base into the stands. Ruling: The swipe by the shortstop is an attempted play; thus the throw to first is not the first play by an infielder (even though it is the first throw), and the proper award of bases would be from the time of the throw. (2) Runner on first and ground ball to second baseman who flips ball to short to get runner from first but who is safe. Shortstop throws beyond first into the stands. Ruling: The flip by the second baseman to the shortstop is an attempted play, even though unsuccessful. The throw to first is not the first play by an infielder and thus runner should be placed from the time of the throw. Runner who was on first would score and batter-runner would be placed at second. Not a play or attempted play: (1) A fake or a feint to a base but not actually throwing, even though the fielder draws an arm back to feint a throw. (2) A pitcher feinting a throw toward a base to hold or check a runner’s progress in order to complete an appeal play at another base. (3) Runner on first, ground ball to the shortstop, who starts to flip the ball to the second baseman but does not and throws the ball beyond first and out of play. Ruling: The feint to the second baseman is not considered a play or attempt ed play, and award of bases is from the time of the pitch. (4) Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw—instead throws to first and into the stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base. Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be made from the time of the pitch.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

For the purpose of an appeal a balk is defined as a play in the rulebook. An "err" is not called a play but it also precludes an appeal. MLB has defined "play" for us in the MLBUM:

To add for clarity (I imagine @jimurrayalterego is aware but not everyone is since I had this debate at an outreach clinic (it was either MiLB or a NCAA Pac-12 official, I think the latter):

If the "err" in appealing was during continuous action, an appeal can still be made after continuous action has ended:

From MLBUM, Ruling 37

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: Runner on first base, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and is caught in flight by the third baseman for an out. The runner on first is nearly to second base when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into the stands. At the time of the throw, the runner from first has not quite reached second base. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

(j) Doesn’t the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn’t the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? Ruling: No. The wild throw by the third baseman is part of the continuous action created by the batter hitting the ball and does not nullify a subsequent appeal after the continuous action has ended.

[The Man in Blue]

On 9/13/2025 at 4:23 PM, jimurrayalterego said:

For the purpose of an appeal a balk is defined as a play in the rulebook. An "err" is not called a play but it also precludes an appeal. MLB has defined "play" for us in the MLBUM:

Thank you.

Now I have to go back to being me . . . So . . . they didn't define it for us.  Elsewise, it would be in the rulebook.

Other codes?  

(I was referring more to the many debates about when a tag attempt starts, can a fielder block a base when the throw is being made, etc.)

[Jack_Wick]

On 9/13/2025 at 11:21 PM, Velho said:

If the umpire didn't judge it a pickoff attempt it would be a valid appeal.

Yes

Yes

 If called a balk - which could happen if the pitcher throws from the rubber - no appeal can be made.

That's the risk of appealing from the rubber: no one can tell you if it will or won't be called a balk. It might be. Umpires and their rulings are not robotic. It's simply not the way baseball works.

A - Likely. B & C - valid appeals.

Feints are explicitly not considered a play (MLBUM).

Ok, thank you so much for the comprehensive answers you gave me.

 

About all these situations:

1. "C - Pitcher, engaged at the rubber (without stepping off first), throws to HB (with the batter absent) for an appeal: Balk for quick pitch, right to appeal lost."

2. "A. Pitcher throws the ball to a fielder for an appeal to 2B, but the fielder believes it's better to appeal to 3B first and therefore throws the ball to the other fielder at 3B. In this case, would the appeal to 3B be legal? Can the pitcher then appeal again by throwing the ball to 2B? Or can the same 3B throw, without first passing the pitcher, to 2B to appeal there as well?"

3. "C. Pitcher on his plate, the appeal should be made for a missed 2B, so the pitcher (engaged on the rubber) could not throw the ball to 3B and then from there a fielder throws the ball to 2B where the appeal should be made, correct?"

4. "D. Couldn't the pitcher engaged on the rubber throw the ball to 3B and then a fielder throws or makes appeal to HB himself from there?"

5. "So here we have this situation: R1 is on first base, the potential appeal would be on third base, so the pitcher steps off the rubber, perhaps confused about where the appeal is, throws the ball to the fielder at 1B (where R1 is also, having never moved)".

Of all these situations, I thought they were all balks. Because of this rule: 

"(4) The pitcher, while touching the plate, throws, or feints a throw, to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

Throwing to an unoccupied base to make an appeal is acceptable and not a balk."

I had interpreted it as if the pitcher (without stepping off the rubber) wanted to appeal, he must necessarily throw to the base where he was appealing; therefore, if he ever threw the ball to a base other than the one he was appealing to, it would be a balk. But apparently I was wrong.

My incorrect interpretation was also due to the comment that was made about the rule (but here it was referring to the pickoff)

"Rule 6.02(a)(4) Comment: When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

From umpirebible:

"Example of a move that would be a balk: A runner on first breaks for second. The pitcher, sensing that the runner is stealing second, turns and throws to second base, while the runner has returned back at first. Since there was no play at second, call a balk."

 

Here it would actually be a balk because the pitcher would throw to 2B. So I thought that if the potential appeal is only on 3B, throwing to 1B (where there is no potential appeal) would already be a balk and therefore no appeal to 3B would be allowed (the same with a throw to 3B or 1B to make appeal to HB).

 

So in all the situations I described (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), the appeal could have been valid, right? But paradoxically, an umpire could also declare a balk and invalidate the appeal, right? 

It sounds like a Schrödinger's cat situation, if I may say so.

 

Anyway thank you so much, I understand all

[beerguy55]

On 9/13/2025 at 11:45 AM, Jack_Wick said:

I didn't explain myself well. So here we have this situation: R1 is on first base, the potential appeal would be on third base, so the pitcher steps off the rubber, perhaps confused about where the appeal is, throws the ball to the fielder at 1B (where R1 is also, having never moved). Once the fielder at first base receives the ball, he tries to correct the error by throwing the ball to third base, where another fielder will make appeal. In this case, will the appeal at 3B be valid? Or will the umpire think the throw to 1B might have been a pickoff attempt?

You explained it fine - if you look back, I answered this. We cannot read the mind of every umpire out there, nor should we try.  If there's no possible appeal attempt at first base, but there is a runner at first base, then a reasonable umpire could reasonably conclude this was a pickoff attempt, negating the appeal.  And some other umpire could figure out what you were really trying to do and rule accordingly. That's what happens when we deal with humans.  You get to deal with emotions, biases, whims, rationalizations, and a wide range of intelligence.   I'd venture to opine that any AI available today would consider it a pickoff attempt...ten years from now AI may be able to get more nuanced and contextual to more accurately determine intent.

For the most part, the rulebook doesn't account for stupidity nor total ineptitude.  It baselines to a level of competence that may not always be there in either players or umpires.  The result: so-called "third world" plays could really go any direction. Nor does the rulebook require the umpire to have a full congressional hearing to determine what your intent really was.  They get to use their noodle, put all available information together, and process an outcome in about two seconds.   So, if you were to make a really stupid mistake like appealing to the wrong base, you're at the mercy of the umpire's judgment to your intent, which could be reasonably defended in multiple directions. 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.