1-knee down slot history?

[orangebird]

One thing that I've been doing since I started my umpiring training is checking out the plate umpire's slot during any game/highlight/etc I watch and I've gradually been noticing something whenever I see a clip from the late 90s/early 00s MLB: guys getting down on one knee (or close to it) in the slot

The legendary Ichiro throw in Oakland from 2001 has an example of this

I also saw an Orioles homer-a-day Twitter account post a Brady Anderson homer from 1998 and sure enough, the plate umpire is down on one knee

I'm sure there's plenty of other clips from around this time period if I look deeper.

I was born in 1997 so I don't exactly remember this era of baseball or know anything about what MLB umpires were taught during this era but I'd assume this board has a few veterans who do so...do you remember when/why the 1-knee slot started becoming a thing and when/why it has seemingly stopped being a thing in 2025 umpiring?

[Kevin_K]

I would suggest it's a hybrid of the scissors, which was a more widespread plate stance years ago than it is now.

For your reading pleasure:

 

[grayhawk]

I know precisely one guy that still works the scissors. It's just not taught anymore at any level.

[dumbdumb]

you mean you do not recognize Supervisor and future WWF referee Larry Young behind the plate for this cleveland at baltimore game May 13, 1998, per retrosheet.  Ogea was the pitcher and Anderson solo homered in the 1st and 4th off Ogea. with Mr. Drew Coble at 1B, Mr. Dale Ford at 2B, and Mr. Ted Hendry at 3B. Mr Coble was the Crew Chief. Mr. Ford, off season D1 basketball official and future tennessee state representative, and Mr Hendry never became Crew Chiefs. just remembering some old internet story about Ford throwing 'Weaver' out during the anthem.

now to your question. i think i saw @lawump working, or a still internet picture of, a Legion game in the scissors. i bet dollars to doughnuts he would have that knee scoop and total history of working the knee for you since he works the scissors and the timeline you gave.

[orangebird]

@lawump 

You've been summoned for a history lesson

[MadMax]

From what I've seen so far, MLBU Rob Drake #8 (RD8) still does Scissors (and occasionally, I think, a knee down) plate stance. As I watched one of his recent games, he alternated between Scissors and Box. 

[GerryB]

Wasn't scissors banned in MiLB due to a high number of neck injuries?

More here say, but...

[lawump]

On 4/20/2025 at 6:13 PM, orangebird said:

@lawump 

You've been summoned for a history lesson

I don't have the complete history...what I recall:

When I went to the Brinkman-Froemming Umpire School in 1997, at the end of the second-to-last day (after all the tests were done, etc.) Joe talked about how he worked the plate.  He famously worked the knee in Game 6 of the 1995 World Series.  Joe also famously worked the knee while being wwwaaaaaayyyyyy behind the catcher.  He talked about the advantages of the knee (locks the head really well and prevents movement) and of being so far behind the catcher (he felt the extra distance forced him to be slower to process the pitch and rule on it...in other words, it helped his timing).

He went on to discuss, however, how he took a lot of guff in the media over his stance and his distance behind the catcher.  He stated that he started to get pressure from the League Office.  As one can see from his famous ejection of Mike Hargrove and Doc Gooden in the ALDS in 1998, Joe's stance had totally changed to more of a heel/toe stance and being much closer to the catcher by 1998.  And, in fact, he had changed in spring training 1997.

So, to summarize, the media heat that umpires were taking about working the knee (that it looked "lazy" and didn't give the umpire a good view of the strike zone) eventually caused the league offices to start pressuring the "knee umpires" to switch.  You can note that even Tim McClelland(who was rated as the "best" umpire in MLB by virtually every player/coaches' poll in the 1990's and 2000's...even though he worked the knee) changed his stance at the end of his career to more of a box.

Of course, by the time I went to the MiLB (then known as "UDP") Development Course in 1997, every stance was outlawed by MiLB except the heel/toe for at least your first two years.  HOWEVER, the National League at that time still preferred their umpires to use the scissors.  Ed Vargo, the then supervisor of NL umpires was a staunch scissors guy.  If Mr. Vargo happened to come to a minor league spring training game and call you to the fence and request to see you work the scissors (which happened often)...guess what you were going to do?  If he told you afterwards, that he wants you to work the scissors going forward...guess what you were going to do?  Also, MiLB umpires who had, had their options purchased by the NL were working the scissors in their (usually) AAA games.  

As everyone knows, the umpiring staffs were eventually combined.  Mr. Vargo was out of a job.  Some studies indicated that the use of the scissors may lead to head/neck issues, so the MLB Office pretty much banned the scissors for all new guys; only old guys could be grandfathered in.  And, of course, by the time this happened, the knee had already gone out-of-fashion for the reasons set forth above.

That is my understanding.  

And, yes, I work the scissors.

 

[orangebird]

Wonderful info, thanks @lawump!

[orangebird]

Quote

He talked about the advantages of the knee (locks the head really well and prevents movement) and of being so far behind the catcher (he felt the extra distance forced him to be slower to process the pitch and rule on it...in other words, it helped his timing).

Looked up the 1995 WS broadcast and Bob Costas called him "as deliberate as an umpire as you'll find anywhere in the major leagues" 

[dumbdumb]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

I don't have the complete history...what I recall:

When I went to the Brinkman-Froemming Umpire School in 1997, at the end of the second-to-last day (after all the tests were done, etc.) Joe talked about how he worked the plate.  He famously worked the knee in Game 6 of the 1995 World Series.  Joe also famously worked the knee while being wwwaaaaaayyyyyy behind the catcher.  He talked about the advantages of the knee (locks the head really well and prevents movement) and of being so far behind the catcher (he felt the extra distance forced him to be slower to process the pitch and rule on it...in other words, it helped his timing).

He went on to discuss, however, how he took a lot of guff in the media over his stance and his distance behind the catcher.  He stated that he started to get pressure from the League Office.  As one can see from his famous ejection of Mike Hargrove and Doc Gooden in the ALDS in 1998, Joe's stance had totally changed to more of a heel/toe stance and being much closer to the catcher by 1998.  And, in fact, he had changed in spring training 1997.

So, to summarize, the media heat that umpires were taking about working the knee (that it looked "lazy" and didn't give the umpire a good view of the strike zone) eventually caused the league offices to start pressuring the "knee umpires" to switch.  You can note that even Tim McClelland(who was rated as the "best" umpire in MLB by virtually every player/coaches' poll in the 1990's and 2000's...even though he worked the knee) changed his stance at the end of his career to more of a box.

Of course, by the time I went to the MiLB (then known as "UDP") Development Course in 1997, every stance was outlawed by MiLB except the heel/toe for at least your first two years.  HOWEVER, the National League at that time still preferred their umpires to use the scissors.  Ed Vargo, the then supervisor of NL umpires was a staunch scissors guy.  If Mr. Vargo happened to come to a minor league spring training game and call you to the fence and request to see you work the scissors (which happened often)...guess what you were going to do?  If he told you afterwards, that he wants you to work the scissors going forward...guess what you were going to do?  Also, MiLB umpires who had, had their options purchased by the NL were working the scissors in their (usually) AAA games.  

As everyone knows, the umpiring staffs were eventually combined.  Mr. Vargo was out of a job.  Some studies indicated that the use of the scissors may lead to head/neck issues, so the MLB Office pretty much banned the scissors for all new guys; only old guys could be grandfathered in.  And, of course, by the time this happened, the knee had already gone out-of-fashion for the reasons set forth above.

That is my understanding.  

And, yes, I work the scissors.

 

thank you @lawump. i quit coming back here when i saw that u had not responded so i started researching this by googling. i just finished my post over on ccs on some of this, from what i could find, just after you posted here. so if it looks like i had plagerized your stuff, i did not, since i am just now reading your post.

enjoy the old 1980 sheesehouse play from the NLCS over on ccs. see some old familiar faces from back in the day including chub feeney whom Vargo answered to and would have had the final say on any hires.

ps--- you got that legion tournament again this year? can we get pictures of some of the eye candy that shows up.