Balk Question

[Supertay19]

Pitcher in set position to start

As he begins to pick up his front leg and bring his hands together he then steps back off the rubber. He never got his hands together just steps off basically before he gets to the set position 

legal?? If not where is the rule supporting 

thanks

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, Supertay19 said:

Pitcher in set position to start

As he begins to pick up his front leg and bring his hands together he then steps back off the rubber. He never got his hands together just steps off basically before he gets to the set position 

legal?? If not where is the rule supporting 

thanks

There is no prohibition against disengaging while coming set but it usually is perceived as a "start stop" balk. "Begins to pick up the front leg" would probably be perceived as a start stop. 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Supertay19 said:

Pitcher in set position to start

As he begins to pick up his front leg and bring his hands together he then steps back off the rubber. He never got his hands together just steps off basically before he gets to the set position 

legal?? If not where is the rule supporting 

thanks

How does someone begin to pick up the front leg and simultaneously step off with the back foot/leg?  Somewhere along the line, F1 (probably) balked.

[grayhawk]

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

How does someone begin to pick up the front leg and simultaneously step off with the back foot/leg?  Somewhere along the line, F1 (probably) balked.

Sounds like his front leg started and he had to put it down before then disengaging. Nothing to see here. (though it counts as a reset in NCAA & Pro).

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Sounds like his front leg started and he had to put it down 

Wouldn't that be a start-stop?

[grayhawk]

15 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Wouldn't that be a start-stop?

He hasn't come set yet, and even if he had, he's allowed to step off immediately after coming set. I don't read anything here where he started his motion to pitch.

[Jimurray]

30 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

He hasn't come set yet, and even if he had, he's allowed to step off immediately after coming set. I don't read anything here where he started his motion to pitch.

There are 2 "start stop" balks. One is stopping the motion to pitch listed in the balk section. The other is not complying with my bolded part of 5.07(a)(2) which has no penalty listed but has been balked as common practice according to Jim Evans:

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 5.07(a)(2) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Note that one hand at his side is a "do not do that" but stopping coming set is a balk. Yes we allow all sorts of fidgets and stutter steps in coming set but a complete stop that fails to go on to the set is a balk. I have seen MLB pitchers balked when stepping off where I would not judge a start stop but the MLB PU did. If you are not happy with Evans cite of "common practice" you can call stopping coming set as an illegal feint.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

There are 2 "start stop" balks. One is stopping the motion to pitch listed in the balk section. The other is not complying with my bolded part of 5.07(a)(2) which has no penalty listed but has been balked as common practice according to Jim Evans:

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 5.07(a)(2) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Note that one hand at his side is a "do not do that" but stopping coming set is a balk. Yes we allow all sorts of fidgets and stutter steps in coming set but a complete stop that fails to go on to the set is a balk. I have seen MLB pitchers balked when stepping off where I would not judge a start stop but the MLB PU did. If you are not happy with Evans cite of "common practice" you can call stopping coming set as an illegal feint.

As long as he doesn't start to come up and then go back down, I have nothing on this. He can still legally step off.

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

As long as he doesn't start to come up and then go back down, I have nothing on this. He can still legally step off.

If he didn't step off would you have a start stop balk on this 'beginning' which might be a twitch?

[grayhawk]

8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If he didn't step off would you have a start stop balk on this 'beginning' which might be a twitch?

If I interpret what he is doing as starting and stopping, yes. This is beginning his motion to come set and then disengaging. I have never balked this.

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If I interpret what he is doing as starting and stopping, yes. This is beginning his motion to come set and then disengaging. I have never balked this.

Me neither as I have them disengaging WHILE coming set. We don't know what "this" is in the OP. MLB umpires usually see it as stopping coming set and then disengaging. I don't have time to extract clips but it's only 14 minutes with one or two balks while disengaging.

 

[grayhawk]

Sure looks like a couple similar to the OP. 

[834k3r]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:56 PM, grayhawk said:

He hasn't come set yet, and even if he had, he's allowed to step off immediately after coming set. I don't read anything here where he started his motion to pitch.

I guess it's not clear to me what the OP means.

I'm having a hard time reconciling "brings up his front leg"--which sounds like a delivery motion to me--and "bring his hands together"--which sounds like a coming-set motion.

[grayhawk]

2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I guess it's not clear to me what the OP means.

I'm having a hard time reconciling "brings up his front leg"--which sounds like a delivery motion to me--and "bring his hands together"--which sounds like a coming-set motion.

My read of it is that the pitcher is in his initial setup, taking his signs. He then starts his motion to come set, bringing his free foot up towards his pivot foot at which time he then steps off. He would have to put his free foot on the ground to shift his weight to be able to step off.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

My read of it is that the pitcher is in his initial setup, taking his signs. He then starts his motion to come set, bringing his free foot up towards his pivot foot at which time he then steps off. He would have to put his free foot on the ground to shift his weight to be able to step off.

That's what I have, and that makes it a start-stop balk.

If F1 starts to rise without moving the front foot and then steps off the back in a smooth motion, I probably have nothing (at the levels we do)

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That's what I have, and that makes it a start-stop balk.

If F1 starts to rise without moving the front foot and then steps off the back in a smooth motion, I probably have nothing (at the levels we do)

If the hands were still moving as the front foot stopped, we really don't have a stop balk yet. That wouldn't violate the NCAA wording if he stepped off "while" that was happening but I suspect there and in MLB it would look like a start stop. Given that in OBR that procedural violation has an unofficial balk while it's part of the same sentence wording that is a do not do that violation it seems MLB grabs that balk when some of us wouldn't. Perhaps the real violation is they think stopping the set feints the runner.

[mrumpiresir]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:26 PM, noumpere said:

That's what I have, and that makes it a start-stop balk.

If F1 starts to rise without moving the front foot and then steps off the back in a smooth motion, I probably have nothing (at the levels we do)

Couldn't we balk him for interrupting his commitment to the pitch?

"After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption."

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, mrumpiresir said:

Couldn't we balk him for interrupting his commitment to the pitch?

"After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption."

Have you RTFT?