Starting from Scratch - No David Bell, It's Not a Ball

[Lindsay]

When Cincinnati batter Elly De La Cruz stepped out of the batter's box during the middle of Brewers pitcher DL Hall's delivery, the Milwaukee pitcher stopped without throwing the baseball, drawing an argument from Reds manager David Bell, who claimed HP Umpire Phil Cuzzi should have called a pitch clock violation, illegal pitch, balk, or otherwise should have awarded an automatic ball to De La Cruz.

Here's why David Bell was wrong.

As we discussed in MLB Ejection 144 - Jim Wolf (2; Stephen Vogt), a batter's infraction cannot cause a balk (or other violation).

We know that Official Baseball Rule 6.02(a)(1), regarding start-stop balks, does not apply here, because there were no runners on base and the balk rule only applies "if there is a runner, or runners."

With the bases empty, a pitcher can start and stop delivery without penalty, provided they reset and are still able to start a new delivery prior to the expiration of the pitch clock.

However, OBR 5.04(b)(2) Comment, which explicitly applies to balks, also applies to the pitch clock: "If after the pitcher starts their windup or comes to a 'set position' with a runner on, they do not go through with their pitch because the batter has inadvertently caused the pitcher to interrupt their delivery, it shall not be called a balk. Both the pitcher and batter have violated a rule and the umpire shall call time and both the batter and pitcher start over from 'scratch.'" The primary issue for this scenario is, similar to the balk question, there are no runners on base.

OBR 5.04(b)(2) proper states, "The batter shall not leave their position in the batter’s box after the pitcher comes to Set Position, or starts their windup." De La Cruz violated this rule.

The reason the pitch timer is not explicitly mentioned in OBR 5.04 is that the pitch clock is not mentioned anywhere in the Official Baseball Rules—the clock is a policy document, not a rulebook addendum. That is why the start-from-scratch comment to the rule explicitly mentions a runner on base—because without runners, it is not illegal for a pitcher to start-stop, and the rulebook doesn't address the existence of the pitch clock ("clock" and "timer" do not appear in the Official Baseball Rules; those regulations are listed in a separate policy document).

This creates a vacuum of rules coverage, so to bring us to a fair and common sense resolution for this unique situation, we then refer to OBR 8.01(c), the elastic clause for umpires: "Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules."

Accordingly, with OBR 5.04(b)(2)'s starting over from scratch instruction for both a pitcher and a batter having "violated a rule"—which happened when De La Cruz stepped out of the box mid-pitch—and 8.01(c) allowing for common sense rules application, no penalty of an automatic ball (or strike) is imposed. The do-over just results in a complete reset.

Video as follows:
Alternate Link: Umpires rule "no pitch" after both batter and pitcher violate a rule

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[The Man in Blue]

English teacher 

The book is poorly written.  Grammar matters.

English teacher 

The end result was correct, but I do not agree that the rule does not address it.  I also disagree that a pitcher can just stop and not deliver a pitch with impunity simply because they were in a windup.

This is not saying the pitcher [starts their windup or comes to a set position] with a runner on . . .

It is saying the pitcher [starts their windup] OR [comes to a set position with a runner on] . . . 

 

Yes, the verbiage of "balk" being used could be problematic if you want it to be one of those guys, however a common sense reading of the rules indicate that balks and illegal pitches are one and the same for the infraction, with the distinction being made in the penalty. 

As one of my summer UICs said in a heated discussion with a coach: "If it is illegal with a runner on, it is illegal with no runners on."

Final thought . . . I thought the only example of "offsetting penalties" (to steal a term from football) found in baseball was commonly known.  Wait, no, I umpire.  Never mind.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

As one of my summer UICs said in a heated discussion with a coach: "If it is illegal with a runner on, it is illegal with no runners on."

It may be illegal but where is the penalty? That's nothing with no runners in OBR and FED although FED can have a pitch clock violation.  I think NCAA wants a ball called for either not delivering or a pitch clock and I believe I read some inane rationale that otherwise pitchers might game the pitch clock rule

[The Man in Blue]

Uh, no, it's not "nothing" in Fed . . . 

Granted, the detail Fed goes into afterwards lands in the same conundrum OBR does because it hyper-focuses itself on the balk/runner on circumstance, but I will use this quote again . . . 

If it is illegal with runners on, it is illegal with no runners on.

With runners on, you use the balk penalty.  With no runners on, you use the illegal pitch penalty.  The action and the violation are one and the same, it is what to do with it that varies slightly.

 

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Uh, no, it's not "nothing" in Fed . . . 

Granted, the detail Fed goes into afterwards lands in the same conundrum OBR does because it hyper-focuses itself on the balk/runner on circumstance, but I will use this quote again . . . 

If it is illegal with runners on, it is illegal with no runners on.

With runners on, you use the balk penalty.  With no runners on, you use the illegal pitch penalty.  The action and the violation are one and the same, it is what to do with it that varies slightly.

 

There are only 2 Illegal Pitches in OBR that have a penalty and one pitching violation that is treated as an illegal pitch. As to FED coaches should advise their pitchers to drop the ball if they stumble during delivery. FED allows that without penalty if the clock, which no one is using, is not violated.

[The Man in Blue]

42 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

There are only 2 Illegal Pitches in OBR that have a penalty and one pitching violation that is treated as an illegal pitch. As to FED coaches should advise their pitchers to drop the ball if they stumble during delivery. FED allows that without penalty if the clock, which no one is using, is not violated.

We are bouncing all over the place!

With no runners on, and IF the ball does not cross the foul line, it is indeed a no pitch.  If it crosses the foul line, it is a pitch and is called a ball.  If there are runners on, it is a balk either way.  I assume you are poking at my "if it is illegal, it is illegal" statement.  I still stand by that since dropping the ball is illegal with runners on or no runners on . . . the penalty is what is different.  For the record, OBR is the same although they wisely use the term "slips [from his] hand" instead of "drops" which gets to the real intent: accidental, not on purpose.

Illegal pitches are balks, both colloquially and by the rule book.  There are actions that are balks that are not illegal pitches because they are not pitches.  Either way, the penalty is not differentiated by the action, but by the circumstance of base runners.

 

Yes, it would be nice if the book would just classify the actions in one section and then the penalties in two different subsections.  Instead, we get this glorious hodgepodge that we all love and hold dear.

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

We are bouncing all over the place!

 If it crosses the foul line, it is a pitch and is called a ball.  If there are runners on, it is a balk either way.   For the record, OBR is the same although they wisely use the term "slips [from his] hand" instead of "drops" which gets to the real intent: accidental, not on purpose.

 

The rule is poorly worded but the MLBUM has us wait to call a balk if the ball is rolling toward the foul line where it would become a ball and not a balk with runners on if it crossed. The MLBUM also adds accidently or intentionally which is why tossing the ball on the rubber is a balk.

Pitcher failing to deliver in OBR with no runners, that's nothing, 

[The Man in Blue]

I get what you are driving at, but when I call an MLB game, I will worry about MLB's specific instructions for MLB games.  Sorry, pointing the MLBUM is not an answer for everything.  It is an answer for the way MLB wants games called.  If it was a tool for other orgs, it would be widely available and freely accessible.

I disagree that it is nothing.  I do agree the book is poorly worded.  

 

If he does not do one of those things, he is in violation.  A pitcher's violations fall into one of two categories: a balk (runners on) or an illegal pitch (no runners on).  If the book doesn't specify the penalty, it is because the penalty is contingent on the situation, not because there is no penalty for the action.

This is like arguing that you shouldn't get a speeding ticket because the law doesn't specifically say "79 MPH" as a ticketable offense.

[Jimurray]

15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I disagree that it is nothing.  I do agree the book is If he does not do one of those things, he is in violation.  A pitcher's violations fall into one of two categories: a balk (runners on) or an illegal pitch (no runners on).  If the book doesn't specify the penalty, it is because the penalty is contingent on the situation, not because there is no penalty for the action.

 

If the book doesn't specify the penalty it can be a "don't do that". Eg: Not separating the hands before taking the set position, not having one hand at your side in the set position. Jeff Nelson ejected a pitcher and everyone thought he was advising the pitcher so as not to balk him. What he did was tell the pitcher he needed to have one hand at his side. The pitcher disagreed and was ejected as per J-R and other interps where once you tell the pitcher not to do that and he doesn't comply you eject him.

[Richvee]

18 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I think NCAA wants a ball called for either not delivering or a pitch clock and I believe I read some inane rationale that otherwise pitchers might game the pitch clock rule

2025 rule change for NCAA 

To amend Rule 9-2-b Penalty as follows: PENALTY—With no one on base, if the ball drops or slips out of the hand, intentionally or accidentally, it is no pitch if the ball does NOT cross the foul line. If it does cross the foul line, it is a ball. If there is a runner(s) on base and the ball is dropped, it is a balk.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

If the book doesn't specify the penalty it can be a "don't do that". Eg: Not separating the hands before taking the set position, not having one hand at your side in the set position. Jeff Nelson ejected a pitcher and everyone thought he was advising the pitcher so as not to balk him. What he did was tell the pitcher he needed to have one hand at his side. The pitcher disagreed and was ejected as per J-R and other interps where once you tell the pitcher not to do that and he doesn't comply you eject him.

 

Ehh . . . OK.  I am not fully agreeing with that, but I believe I understand what you are saying.

I would say a "don't do that" is a tool of good game management, not an alternative penalty that can be applied when a situation may be unclear.  This is especially true at the amateur level that most of us call.  Choosing to use it does not necessarily mean the action was not a balk or illegal pitch, though.

Was it a good tool to use in that case?  If it ended on an ejection on the second pitch instead of a balk/illegal pitch call on either pitch, I would lean towards it not being the right tool in that case.  Should have just called it.

That said, yes, a better crafted rule book would be beneficial!

[Jimurray]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

Was it a good tool to use in that case?  If it ended on an ejection on the second pitch instead of a balk/illegal pitch call on either pitch, I would lean towards it not being the right tool in that case.  Should have just called it.

 

There was nothing to call. It's not a balk or IP. CCS and quite a few others did not understand that this was a "don't do that". Nelson was not advising the pitcher about how to avoid a balk. No MLB umpire would do that as the opposing coach would have a fit for the umpire helping the other team.

[beerguy55]

In MLB this should be a strike.

"Batters must be in the box and alert to the pitcher by the 8-second mark or else be charged with an automatic strike."

When he steps out he's no longer alert to the pitcher, and it's presumably under 8 seconds* when he does it (considering with no runners on it's only a 15 second timer).

At that point it's a dead ball. What the pitcher does after that is irrelevant.

 

Also keep in mind, the batter must be ready by 8 seconds*, no matter what the pitcher is doing...the pitcher could be standing on the rubber, playing with the rosin bag, or talking with the shortstop...if the ball was thrown back to the pitcher to restart the clock, the batter has his mandate.   And with no runners on base the clock does not reset when the pitcher steps off the rubber.  In this case, as weird as it may look, with no runners on this is just a legal stop in delivery...and the clock keeps going.  Meaning even if the batter hypothetically stepped out at ten seconds, he's not going to be ready by the 8-second mark.

 

* though the language says "by the 8-second mark" I think it is safe to presume the intent is the batter must be alert to the pitcher for that entire 8 seconds, or until the pitch is thrown, whichever comes first.  ie. if the batter steps out at 2 seconds, and the pitcher remains motionless until zero, the call is a strike, not a ball.

[dumbdumb]

go to 3:38:30 to 3:42 and see the 2011 play.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zye9_XFdjts&pp=ygUYMjAxMSB3b3JsZCBzZXJpZXMgZ2FtZSAx

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

go to 3:38:30 to 3:42 and see the 2011 play.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zye9_XFdjts&pp=ygUYMjAxMSB3b3JsZCBzZXJpZXMgZ2FtZSAx

I think this refers to a different thread but doesn't Youtube have a clip ability? Or does MLBGlobal11 restrict that?

[dumbdumb]

39 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think this refers to a different thread but doesn't Youtube have a clip ability? Or does MLBGlobal11 restrict that?

you are talking a foreign language to a flip phone guy. none of that makes sense to me. johnny08 maybe can answer. i just click and drag stuff. i know not what i do.