Benefit of Doubt on tipped ball

[BLWizzRanger]

This is a HTBT, of course.

 

Yesterday, as the HP, I ruled that an F2 dropped the ball on the transfer when trying to throw out R1 stealing second.

 

It was a tipped ball that went straight to the glove. It sounded true to the ball going to the inner part of the glove. This allowed the F2 to carry it to a throwing position (out of the crouch, right foot down) but, of course, he dropped it.

 

Additionally, F2 was a D1 player with substantial playing time. So the skill level is high. I wasnt thinking that at the time, just going on my instincts.

 

Are/would you give a benefit out doubt to the F2 that he didnt catch it? What do you think?

 

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[grayhawk]

I don't think in terms of benefit of the doubt in this situation. I either saw firm and secure possession and voluntary transfer, or I didn't. 

[BigBlue4u]

7 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Yesterday, as the HP, I ruled that an F2 dropped the ball on the transfer when trying to throw out R1 stealing second.

 

It was a tipped ball that went straight to the glove. It sounded true to the ball going to the inner part of the glove. This allowed the F2 to carry it to a throwing position (out of the crouch, right foot down) but, of course, he dropped it.

 

Additionally, F2 was a D1 player with substantial playing time. So the skill level is high. I wasnt thinking that at the time, just going on my instincts.

 

Are/would you give a benefit out doubt to the F2 that he didnt catch it? What do you think?

BLWR.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what happened.  It was a tipped ball because of what?  Off the catcher's glove? Off the bat?  Also, what is the point of your question?  More info please.

[BLWizzRanger]

The batter tipped the pitch on the swing.

But we arent really seeing the total catch in this instance, right? We see the tip and the reaction of the glove to the tip hitting it, but then the catcher is moving into position to throw and we are starting to take note of any batter interference.

I can imagine where it wasnt truely in the glove's pocket because of the tip but the F2 influenced the ball enough to get where it was.

I am ok with my call because the ball didnt get to where it was without the influence of the F2 and I heard the same sound as I had heard when the ball was caught in the pocket.



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[SH0102]

4 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Also, what is the point of your question?

Because if you deem F2 had possession; the stolen base stands since it was a foul tip. If not, it’s a foul ball and runner must go back. 

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

BLWR.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what happened.  It was a tipped ball because of what?  Off the catcher's glove? Off the bat?  Also, what is the point of your question?  More info please.

You're overcomplicating this.

It's a (potential) foul tip.  That was then dropped as the catcher made an attempt to retire a stealing runner.

With the back of the catcher's glove to you, what guidelines are you using to help yourself determine if the ball was caught cleanly (making it a true foul tip) and was dropped on the transfer, vs it was never cleanly possessed after the foul (making it a foul ball)?

[BLWizzRanger]

Yeah, what I posted earlier was my criteria.  Foul tip, sound of the ball hitting the glove 'sounding right' (whatever that means), catcher's movement to throw, ball being dropped as the catcher's throwing hand was moving out of the glove.  Those I can see clearly but I am, I don't want to say distracted, but, as the catcher is moving, I am starting to take note of what the batter is doing.

This will probably murky it up some, but, have you ever seen Omar Vizquel's video of him playing catch and him deflecting the ball to his throwing hand?  Usually done by F4/F6s when turning a double play, they don't close their glove on the ball.  I could see where a higher level catcher, say a D1 player, using this method when he prepares to throw to a base.  Maybe he doesn't deflect it but he doesn't close his glove either. He, however, does expect the ball to be in the pocket when reaching for it.  And the slightest of difference to where he is thinking he is catching the ball and where the ball goes to on a tipped ball, could be the difference in him coming away with it cleanly or not.

So, two things, the next batter did hit a single which drove in the R2. The ball doesn't lie?  I did get a little respectful, under the breath, wire brushing with that. 

My partners didn't see anything out of the ordinary that could have helped me determine that the F2 never/ever had control of the ball. So it didn't look weird to them.  And like one of them said, if I had ruled a foul ball on the 'dropped' tip, I wouldn't have gotten flack from the other dugout either.

So, I don't know, I guess just keep calling them like I see them...

[maven]

I guess I don't understand who's getting the "benefit" here. If you rule this a foul tip, the offense gets the benefit, because R1 gets to keep his stolen base. 

If I were the defense, I'd expect this to be ruled a foul ball. Baseball is a game of defense: had you ruled that way, nobody would have said a word—the defense certainly doesn't want R1 on 2B. And the batter fouled off the pitch, so R1 has to return. Play on.