Returning to a base

[Coach Carl]

Getting back to the specific instance in the OP:

The runner's retouch is not acknowledged and he should be called out on appeal.

5.06 (c) explicitly states:

While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field).

All the approved rulings, comments and MLBUM interps that have been cited are given to help us adjudicate the situations in which a runner IS allowed to advance.  In the OP, nothing occurred while the ball was alive to allow the runner to advance, ergo, he also cannot correct his missed base.

Another question?  Why would you allow the runner to correct his base running error when the defense cannot appeal.  Allowing the runner to correct his miss while after time has been called would go counter to the whole basic concept of the "race" involved in the runner trying to correct his error before the defense makes a valid appeal.   The cited exceptions to this basic concept (when a runner is awarded bases) even contain the words, "without liability to be put out."  This is why the runner can correct his errors during a dead ball award.  He has no liability to be put out.  

 

[beerguy55]

24 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

Allowing the runner to correct his miss while after time has been called would go counter to the whole basic concept of the "race" involved in the runner trying to correct his error before the defense makes a valid appeal.   

LOL - in FED you would still get the race as you can verbally appeal during a dead ball.

 

33 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

All the approved rulings, comments and MLBUM interps that have been cited are given to help us adjudicate the situations in which a runner IS allowed to advance

It's adjudicating scenarios that are likely to come up, or have come up.  I'd suggest a scenario like the OP is not in there because it hasn't come up before, not because it's inherently obvious, and that its lack of presence in the MLBUM should not be interpreted one way or the other.  I think the scenario needs to be in there, whatever the proper ruling is.

 

[BigBlue4u]

On 2/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, beerguy55 said:

Anyway, tell me I'm an idiot all you want - that's a resolution I can sleep with, and defend.

No, we are not going tell you are an idiot.  But, we are going to remind you that if a runner reaches or passes a missed base and the ball becomes dead, by rule, he cannot correct his error by returning and touching the missed base and will be called out on a legal and successful appeal. 

(HS) 8-2-6-d-1

[Coach Carl]

45 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

It's adjudicating scenarios that are likely to come up, or have come up.  I'd suggest a scenario like the OP is not in there because it hasn't come up before, not because it's inherently obvious, and that its lack of presence in the MLBUM should not be interpreted one way or the other.  I think the scenario needs to be in there, whatever the proper ruling is.

 

I would say that given the language of 5.06(c), it is inherently obvious.  It is an ingrained part of the game that, as a rule, nothing can happen when the ball is not live.  Further, all the exceptions to this rule are either obvious (a fair batted ball out of play) or require the umpire to make a call and instruct the runner of his award.  

 

[BigBlue4u]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

That is it, please research that and you’ll see I am correct 

No research is necessary.  Check the rule book (all levels) which will tell you if a runner misses a base or leaves too soon on a caught fly ball, cannot correct his error if he touches or passes a succeeding base.

[Senor Azul]

2023 NFHS rule 8-2-5:

If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, the runner must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, the runner cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

2023 NFHS case book play 8.2.2 Situation C

R1 misses second base on the way to third. R1 is:  (a) standing on third base; or (b) halfway between second and third base when the throw from the outfield sails into the bleachers. Ruling:  In (a), all the defense needs to do is verbally state that the runner missed second base. R1 would be ruled out. R1 cannot legally attempt to return to touch second, since R1 was on a subsequent base when the ball became dead. In (b), the runner may attempt to return and touch second base since R1 has not yet gained third base. The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

[BigBlue4u]

2 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

Another question?  Why would you allow the runner to correct his base running error when the defense cannot appeal.  Allowing the runner to correct his miss while after time has been called would go counter to the whole basic concept of the "race" involved in the runner trying to correct his error before the defense makes a valid appeal.

I just cannot understand why people do not understand this rule.  Coach Carl, you left off the fact the runner advanced and touched a following base.  That kills his chance of correct his error.

 

 

1 minute ago, Senor Azul said:

2023 NFHS rule 8-2-5:

If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, the runner must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, the runner cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

2023 NFHS case book play 8.2.2 Situation C

R1 misses second base on the way to third. R1 is:  (a) standing on third base; or (b) halfway between second and third base when the throw from the outfield sails into the bleachers. Ruling:  In (a), all the defense needs to do is verbally state that the runner missed second base. R1 would be ruled out. R1 cannot legally attempt to return to touch second, since R1 was on a subsequent base when the ball became dead. In (b), the runner may attempt to return and touch second base since R1 has not yet gained third base. The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

EXCELLENT!  I strongly urge people who don't understand retouching bases to carefully read the above.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. BigBlue4u, the way FED rules on this issue differs greatly from OBR. I posted the FED rule and case play to show Mr. beerguy55 he was wrong because it seemed to me he was lumping FED and OBR rules together. This issue does have an entry in the 2016 BRD mainly because FED is so different. NCAA also differs from OBR but not so radically. 

In FED, when the ball becomes dead, a runner who is "on or beyond" the next base during live action is not permitted legally to retouch his original base at all.

In FED, if the runner has passed a succeeding base and the ball is dead, he is out on appeal after he returns to retouch and accepts his award. In NCAA/OBR the runner is out on appeal only if he touched a succeeding base AFTER THE BALL BECAME DEAD.

 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

No research is necessary.  Check the rule book (all levels) which will tell you if a runner misses a base or leaves too soon on a caught fly ball, cannot correct his error if he touches or passes a succeeding base.

First - fix your post...your post attributes a quote to me (about being correct) and I said no such thing.

 

I know that FED treats this differently, but this has been an OBR discussion since the OP...And this following statement is from the MLBUM.

"Runners on first and second, one out. Batter hits deep fly ball that is caught by right fielder. The runner from second was running when the ball was hit, did not tag up, and proceeds to touch and round third base. After the runner from second has rounded third base, the right fielder throws behind the runner from first, who is returning to first base. The fielder's throw is wild and goes out of play. The umpires call "Time" and award the runners home and third. When the umpires call "Time" the runner from second is between third and home, and the runner from first is between first and second. At this point the manager yells to the runner from second (who is between third and home) to go back and tag up at second base. Is this permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon? Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return."

[TOMUIC]

Thank you Senor  Azul, the rule in OBR  is very different from these other rule codes that are being cited.

[TOMUIC]

Meant to say OBR and NCAA have the same name

[TOMUIC]

Rule (sorry)

[TOMUIC]

Would anyone like to verify the correctness of the following ruling under OBR?

Batter gets long hit,misses first base and his halfway to third when a throw  is released and goes into dead area when the batter-runner is now 5 feet passed third base. The Umpire  awards the runner Homeplate. Before advancing to home plate the runner retouches third ,second,and first base and then proceeds to touch second third and home.

Ruling: 1) The runner has legally corrected his mistake.

             2) his award is indeed home plate.

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. BigBlue4u, the way FED rules on this issue differs greatly from OBR. I posted the FED rule and case play to show Mr. beerguy55 he was wrong because it seemed to me he was lumping FED and OBR rules together.

Not sure why you would think that...over and over again I used OBR and MLBUM references and very clearly, once I found the MLBUM position, demonstrated that I understood the OBR position on when a runner can correct a baserunning error in a dead ball.  You were the one who continued to argue against that.

I did make a joke about the FED dead ball appeal rule...but I forget sometimes that you're an irony free zone.

[TOMUIC]

You were insisting that the award is made from the base he must retouch (having missed it) and that’s not true, in the example I gave the award is still home plate because first base was missed (not left too soon on caught  flyball)

[Richvee]

No offense to anyone. But this has got to be one of the more asinine discussions Ive ever seen here. Every one of you arguing that the BR can miss first, pull onto 2B, call time, then go back and touch 1b and return to 2B are using rules, interps and case plays where the ball is dead because of the throw or batted ball going out of play and base running awards need to be awarded. 
 

The OP is a dead ball because playing action has ended.

cmon guys…… are you seriously arguing that a guy can hit an in play double,  cut the corner at 1b, slide into second, call time, then go back and touch 1b. C’mon….this isn’t Calvin Ball. 

[TOMUIC]

I have been in touch with Jim Evans regarding the original offensive play. Unfortunately, people on this site will not believe me, but I will tell you what he said regarding this play:

Even though he strongly disagrees, at the present time, MLB does not make a distinction between a dead ball caused by a throw that goes out of play, and one that is caused by time being called. Hence the correct interpretation to the original offensive play is that the runner can return to correct his mistake at first base and will be ruled safe on appeal.

Regarding the award to a runner who returns to touch a missed  base, the award is made from the runner’s location at the time of the errant throw (or pitch if pertinent) not from the base he missed.

In addition:

At the very least, Jim feels that the runner should not be allowed to return to the missed  base if he is the one who requested  time to be called.

 

[Senor Azul]

Runners can be awarded bases from their position(s) at the time of the:

PITCH 

THROW 

TOUCH:  For example, the moment the ball is touched by the fielder's detached or thrown equipment

ENTRY:  The moment the fielder enters an out-of-play area with the ball

INFRACTION:  The moment a team member violates a rule 

Did we invent a new one in this thread--the time the ball goes into dead ball territory?

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Runners can be awarded bases from their position(s) at the time of the:

Did we invent a new one in this thread--the time the ball goes into dead ball territory?

The only time I noticed (admittedly I'm not hanging on every word) we talked about time it enters dead ball territory was from your cite  

7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

2023 NFHS case book play 8.2.2 Situation C

R1 misses second base on the way to third. R1 is:  (a) standing on third base; or (b) halfway between second and third base when the throw from the outfield sails into the bleachers. Ruling:  In (a), all the defense needs to do is verbally state that the runner missed second base. R1 would be ruled out. R1 cannot legally attempt to return to touch second, since R1 was on a subsequent base when the ball became dead. In (b), the runner may attempt to return and touch second base since R1 has not yet gained third base. The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

 

[Coach Carl]

6 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Runners can be awarded bases from their position(s) at the time of the:

PITCH 

THROW 

TOUCH:  For example, the moment the ball is touched by the fielder's detached or thrown equipment

ENTRY:  The moment the fielder enters an out-of-play area with the ball

INFRACTION:  The moment a team member violates a rule 

Did we invent a new one in this thread--the time the ball goes into dead ball territory?

Not only that, but we've so perplexed Mr. Evans that he's invented a distinction regarding a particular calling of time after asserting that MLB doesn't make any distinction regarding the reason for calling time.

So, our official interpretation is:  allow the touch to correct the error, unless the offense calls time?

I think Mr. Evans needs some time to think this through before we run with THAT.   

 

 

[TOMUIC]

Once again, Jim Evans personally does not agree with the current MLB interpretation on this topic which makes no distinction between an overthrow going out of play causing a dead ball, or any other reason causing time to be called. He was giving his opinion that at the very least the runner should not be allowed to return to a missed base (or one left too soon) if the runner is the one who caused the time out.

Again, he was only expressing his opinion, not the official interpretation.

Also,where on this thread did someone say that an overthrow award can be based on the runner’s  location when the ball becomes dead? 

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, TOMUIC said:

You were insisting that the award is made from the base he must retouch (having missed it) and that’s not true, in the example I gave the award is still home plate because first base was missed (not left too soon on caught  flyball)

Different conversation.   The initial conversation was whether or not the runner was "past or beyond"...that was the one where I found the MLBUM reference you mentioned, and realized the distinction between how FED and OBR handle that specific piece.

Senor Azul kept arguing against me (and you) on that position.

 

The issue of whether or not an award resets when the runner corrects his error (in both missed based and left early situations) is a different topic...we still haven't seen any other opinions on that one.  (and to be clear, I see your reasoning, and I can buy it...I'm just hoping for other documentation to support it)

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Did we invent a new one in this thread--the time the ball goes into dead ball territory?

Nothing invented, not by us anyway...MLBUM clearly uses this standard as a measure to determine a runner's location and their ability to correct a baserunning error...in defining "their next base".  That is, the award is defined by TOT, but their next base is defined by when the ball went out of play.

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, Richvee said:

cmon guys…… are you seriously arguing that a guy can hit an in play double,  cut the corner at 1b, slide into second, call time, then go back and touch 1b. C’mon….this isn’t Calvin Ball. 

If you will see my initial response you will see my initial aversion to this, for the same reasons you cite.  Just without knowing any rules at all the initial gut reaction is to disallow this.  It just doesn't seem "right".

To repeat what I said before...it's "icky".   I like it even less when you not only let him retouch first, but also let him return to second.

I'm simply saying that 5.09(c) does not distinguish between a dead ball caused by a ball going out of play vs INT/OBS vs an umpire calling/granting Time.   It simply indicates that a baserunning error CAN be corrected during a dead ball, and the only restriction it defines is where the runner is located.  Putting it together with 5.06(c) creates, at best, a conflict that needs to be resolved.

FED resolves this by not letting him return after reaching second at any time  (not to mention the ability to verbally appeal).

Me - in OBR I'm letting him correct the error 5.09(c)...AND keeping him at first 5.06(c).  And then letting either the offense or the defense file a protest and see where it lands.   I'll take it to the Supreme Court.  😁

Edit: and I make the same ruling whether he missed first, or left first early on a tag up.

[Velho]

1 minute ago, beerguy55 said:

Me - in OBR I'm letting him correct the error 5.09(c)...AND keeping him at first 5.06(c).  And then letting either the offense or the defense file a protest and see where it lands.   I'll take it to the Supreme Court.  😁

That's consistent (in my mind at least) with legally returning to retouch during dead ball and the award being from there. There is no award in this case so stay on first.