Runner hit by ball when very close to foul territory

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I am stealing this line to use with coaches next season.

That is a good retort that all of us might use. But aside of our quandary I would expect you to ask why we are calling the OP a fair ball since you expouse being, the words escape me, but curmudgeon will suffice. There are no interps to complain about regarding the definitions of fair and foul. So would you like to apply the foul definition to the OP. And parsing wise we have 2 sits for @ErichKeane to parse. Ball partially over fair first touched by the fielders glove above the foul part of territory. Ball partially over foul territory touched by that same fielders glove with first contact over fair territory. Parse away. We all know what we call. 

[The Man in Blue]

Meh.  Don't care.  Call it what you will since it is a third world play.  It doesn't matter what the rule book says, somebody with some self-important air of authority will just exude their will over it anyway.  I'll watch for the magazine article citing the self-published book that quotes the e-mail between that guy and Rando Ump #4 in Popejoy, Iowa.

I just like the line and that was all I said.

Curmudgeonly enough?  😁

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Meh.  Don't care.  Call it what you will since it is a third world play.  It doesn't matter what the rule book says, somebody with some self-important air of authority will just exude their will over it anyway.  I'll watch for the magazine article citing the self-published book that quotes the e-mail between that guy and Rando Ump #4 in Popejoy, Iowa.

I just like the line and that was all I said.

Curmudgeonly enough?  😁

Yes perfect and a perfect description of much ado about a third world play although we haven’t seen it yet but a squeeze play could generate a first world play. But given the defects you point out in all baseball codes,  you are happy with us calling that a fair and live ball or a fair ball and  INT. You occasionally parse the rule as in a recent obstruction thread so I would expect your curmudgeon response to this OP to be why have we called it’s fair ball. 

[Tog Gee]

I know it's a rare circumstance, but I want to know the rule. Now I have personally settled on this for NFHS because of the case play:

A runner is in foul territory and is (accidentally) hit by a fair batted ball: play on; live ball.

But I am most interested to hear where more experienced folks have landed? Might some call it INT to avoid a seemingly bizarre call?

[BigBlue4u]

On 10/4/2023 at 8:17 AM, GiantEngineer said:

That's possibly where I was getting confused. Hopefully someone can find a case play. 

Sr. Azul....your phone is ringing!!

[The Man in Blue]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:35 PM, Jimurray said:

Yes perfect and a perfect description of much ado about a third world play although we haven’t seen it yet but a squeeze play could generate a first world play. But given the defects you point out in all baseball codes,  you are happy with us calling that a fair and live ball or a fair ball and  INT. You occasionally parse the rule as in a recent obstruction thread so I would expect your curmudgeon response to this OP to be why have we called it’s fair ball. 

 

I hate to disappoint in my curmudgeonly ways  ... (I even had a student e-mail me and tell me that I was "just old and bored" and that was why I was picking on her for having her cell phone out during class) ...

NFHS 8-4-2k says a runner is out when hit by a fair ball if it has not passed a fielder.  If the third baseman is playing behind the bag, and the ball ricochets off the bag (fair ball per NFHS 2-5-1e), then we seem to have an out.  No exception is made in 8-4-2k based on the runner's position.

If the third baseman is playing in front of the bag, we have a fair ball, play on.  (Unless deemed intentional interference by the umpire.)

 

HOWEVER ... NFHS 2-16-1d tells us a foul ball is a ball that touches a person on or over foul territory.  It gives us no provision for prior status of the ball.

Although, I believe we commonly accept the declaration of the fair ball when it hits the bag as absolute with no change based on successive action.  This is  not actually supported by a rule, unlike an accidental declaration of a foul ball which is written to stay foul. 

Then you add in the wrinkle of a ball that touches the ground in fair territory with a spin on it, it careens back towards foul territory where it strikes the runner before touching the ground.  The definition of a foul ball calls that foul.  Would you change your mind based on where the fair bounce was (before the bag, within the bag, after the bag)?  Is it a fair ball if it passes over the bag coming back?

 

The real question is: do we accept the ball hitting the bag as an absolute fair ball?   It seems we do.

 

Back to the OP's original play ... Since OBR gives us the "fair ball ON fair territory" caveat, we seem to have a live ball, play on.  The ruling also gives us the deflected scenario, so we are covered there as well -- play on.

 

Now, leave me alone, it's time for my nap.

 

Edited to add: I'll give a dollar to anybody who can get my post cited as an official interpretation.  I believe it meets the criteria.  Or some of the criteria.  Is there criteria?  

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I hate to disappoint in my curmudgeonly ways  ... (I even had a student e-mail me and tell me that I was "just old and bored" and that was why I was picking on her for having her cell phone out during class) ...

NFHS 8-4-2k says a runner is out when hit by a fair ball if it has not passed a fielder.  If the third baseman is playing behind the bag, and the ball ricochets off the bag (fair ball per NFHS 2-5-1e), then we seem to have an out.  No exception is made in 8-4-2k based on the runner's position.

If the third baseman is playing in front of the bag, we have a fair ball, play on.  (Unless deemed intentional interference by the umpire.)

 

HOWEVER ... NFHS 2-16-1d tells us a foul ball is a ball that touches a person on or over foul territory.  It gives us no provision for prior status of the ball.

Although, I believe we commonly accept the declaration of the fair ball when it hits the bag as absolute with no change based on successive action.  This is  not actually supported by a rule, unlike an accidental declaration of a foul ball which is written to stay foul. 

Then you add in the wrinkle of a ball that touches the ground in fair territory with a spin on it, it careens back towards foul territory where it strikes the runner before touching the ground.  The definition of a foul ball calls that foul.  Would you change your mind based on where the fair bounce was (before the bag, within the bag, after the bag)?  Is it a fair ball if it passes over the bag coming back?

 

The real question is: do we accept the ball hitting the bag as an absolute fair ball?   It seems we do.

 

Back to the OP's original play ... Since OBR gives us the "fair ball ON fair territory" caveat, we seem to have a live ball, play on.  The ruling also gives us the deflected scenario, so we are covered there as well -- play on.

 

Now, leave me alone, it's time for my nap.

 

Edited to add: I'll give a dollar to anybody who can get my post cited as an official interpretation.  I believe it meets the criteria.  Or some of the criteria.  Is there criteria?  

 

 

 

 

I would agree with live ball in the OP. I would not want to delve into the problems with the rules as written and it's my bedtime.

[BigBlue4u]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:39 AM, Jimurray said:

You also have to determine where the runner was when hit. The OP is a fair ball due to touching the person of a player while over fair territory. But the runner was not touched in fair territory so it's a live ball.

What???????  With few exceptions, any batted ball hitting a runner, fair or foul, is a dead ball.

Unless the 3B was playing in front of the runner, and the ball is fair, this is a d-e-a-d ball.

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

What???????  With few exceptions, any batted ball hitting a runner, fair or foul, is a dead ball.

Unless the 3B was playing in front of the runner, and the ball is fair, this is a d-e-a-d ball.

You haven't read all of the thread, have you?

[BigBlue4u]

8 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

But the runner was not touched in fair territory so it's a live ball.

The above is the part that got my attention.  What am I missing?

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

The above is the part that got my attention.  What am I missing?

You are missing reading the thread where the OBR rule is cited and a FED caseplay is cited.

[BigBlue4u]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You are missing reading the thread where the OBR rule is cited and a FED case play is cited.

OK JMurray.  In the part I read on your later post, nothing was said about a batted ball hitting a base.  Different play.  I also mentioned "with few exceptions."  This is one of them. In this case the ball IS live and there is no penalty to the runner being hit with a fair ball, unless he intentionally interferes with the ball. So, now that we are reading the same original post, I get it.   🙂

 

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

OK JMurray.  In the part I read on your later post, nothing was said about a batted ball hitting a base.  Different play.  I also mentioned "with few exceptions."  This is one of them. In this case the ball IS live and there is no penalty to the runner being hit with a fair ball, unless he intentionally interferes with the ball. So, now that we are reading the same original post, I get it.   🙂

 

While the FED caseplay involves the ball hitting a base the ruling specifies any fair ball and can be applied to the OP: "RULING: A runner who is hit by a batted fair ball in foul territory is not out and the ball remains live." 

You can debate the OBR ruling but if you kill the ball in the OP you cannot apply any of the actions allowed by rule for a fair ball touching a runner ON fair territory.

[The Ripper]

Remember the ball does not have to touch the chalk, but can be over the the chalk and be FAIR, ( Phil Cuzzi play down the 3rd base line, in cubs vs cardinals game in 2021 and Lance Barrett’s Yankees vs royals game this year). Thank you close call sports for the videos!

 

 

[ErichKeane]

Just now, UmpWRB4 said:

Remember the ball does not have to touch the chalk, but can be over the the chalk and be FAIR, ( Phil Cuzzi play down the 3rd base line, in cubs vs cardinals game in 2021 and Lance Barrett’s Yankees vs royals game this year). Thank you close call sports for the videos!

 

 

THAT is why the rule here is so interesting!  The interference/dead ball is ONLY if the runner is ON fair territory, not whether the BALL is ON fair territory according to @Jimurray's interp here, which I have a hard time disagreeing with (at least by wording).

 

SO you can have a ball that is 'fair' because it is over the chalk, hit R3, but R3 is completely in foul territory, causing this to be a 'play on' situation!

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

THAT is why the rule here is so interesting!  The interference/dead ball is ONLY if the runner is ON fair territory, not whether the BALL is ON fair territory according to @Jimurray's interp here, which I have a hard time disagreeing with (at least by wording).

 

SO you can have a ball that is 'fair' because it is over the chalk, hit R3, but R3 is completely in foul territory, causing this to be a 'play on' situation!

That's what I think. Let's not get into whether that ball is fair and also foul and might be even more foul by being touched over foul territory.

[Vegas_Ump]

There I was........some 30 years ago!  LL 90'.

R3 was leading off in foul territory.  Batter hits a line drive that smacks the 3B bag.  It caroms off backwards and hits R3.  The PU called "play on!".

By hitting the bag, the batted ball is a fair ball regardless of where it goes after hitting the bag.  It's live!  But it hit the runner in FOUL territory.

I support that call!

Mike

Las Vegas

[ErichKeane]

20 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

There I was........some 30 years ago!  LL 90'.

R3 was leading off in foul territory.  Batter hits a line drive that smacks the 3B bag.  It caroms off backwards and hits R3.  The PU called "play on!".

By hitting the bag, the batted ball is a fair ball regardless of where it goes after hitting the bag.  It's live!  But it hit the runner in FOUL territory.

I support that call!

Mike

Las Vegas

That case I definitely support.  The more interesting situation to me is when the ball BECOMES fair because it hit the runner (despite the runner and contact happening in foul territory, but being partially 'over' fair territory).

Depending on our reading of 'on' fair territory, you also get situations where the runner is not in contact with fair territory at all, but part of his body is over it, and THAT gets hit, but I think @Jimurray and I are in agreement that there is no way that is an acceptable reading of it (despite having to squint to make that reading go away).

[humanbackstop19]

Thinking outside the box a bit, compare this to football for a second and a free kick out of bounds which the players feet are out of bounds, but the ball is in.  It is still a foul for free kick out of bounds.  In the baseball OP, we would have the opposite ruling.  Touching (on a batted ball) with Ball in & Player out = PLAYER IN, resulting in interference and an out.  

Just helps me think through it.  Sorry if it's way off in RF. 

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Thinking outside the box a bit, compare this to football for a second and a free kick out of bounds which the players feet are out of bounds, but the ball is in.  It is still a foul for free kick out of bounds.  In the baseball OP, we would have the opposite ruling.  Touching (on a batted ball) with Ball in & Player out = PLAYER IN, resulting in interference and an out.  

Just helps me think through it.  Sorry if it's way off in RF. 

Thank you for apologizing.