NFHS OBS: Calling an obstructed runner out, then awarding bases

[Tog Gee]

I raised a similar question about this earlier and I didn't get a firm answer. I have asked other umpires as well. I have two situations about delayed dead ball OBS.

NFHS: no "type A or tybe B" OBS. Always delayed dead ball OBS.

A runner can be called out (then out undone) when obstructed:

a) no outs. On the pitch, R2 steals towards third and catcher obstructs the batter, (umpire points and notes it), batter hits a grounder to F4. BR is thrown out at first (umpire signals OUT) and the runner aggressively goes home, scoring on a bad throw. With the OBS the batter could be awarded first and R2 gets third, but coach now has the option to accept the result of the play instead. What I want to note is that the BR was called OUT and the play was allowed to continue unfolding. The umpire cannot communicate real time that "there was OBS and the runner may be safe". One simply calls the out with the intention of applying OBS, or not, when the dust settles. The defense then plays on, able to focus on the other runner. The umpire can always award the batter first when need be. But in real time the BR is called out. If there's two outs, you simply enforce the OBS unless the coach really wants to end their at bat for some reason.

Similar:

b) no outs, R2. Double hit to outfield. F6 trips R2 and R2 loses several steps. On the throw home, R2 is clearly out and the umpire signals OUT. The defense then turn attention to the BR at second who rounded second too far, tries to get back, and is tagged out when F2 throws to second. Is it the case that the umpire must call R2 OUT at the plate so that play can continue? I think so.

And what if there are 2 outs? Kill the play after the play at the plate? I think this might be an issue with NFHS delayed dead ball OBS.

[JonnyCat]

I think you're convolution 2 different rules regarding obstruction. It's mostly because FED is stupid in some of their terminology.

In your first situation, this is covered under rule 8-1-1e. FED refers to this as catchers obstruction. Everyone else refers to this as catchers interference. You situation deals with catcher obstruction(interference) on the batter by the catcher. It's the same as OBR rule 5.05(b)3. It's just that FED calls it CO, instead of CI. The manager, in some cases, could accept the results of the play. However, if the BR reaches 1B safely, and all other runners,(if any) advance at least one base safely, then the CI is ignored.

In situation (a), let the play unfold, and either enforce the CO/CI, or ignore it, or give the manager the option, depending on the situation. Unless it's 2 outs, then enforce the CO/CI as soon as the BR is called out at 1B.

Your second situation deals with a runner being obstructed, this is covered under FED 8-3-2. This is where OBR has type one and two, rule 6.01(h). (OBR does not use A and B anymore.)

So in you second situation in FED, as soon as R2 was called out, then you would kill the play, and award R2 at least one base beyond his last legally occupied base. In addition the umpire can award any other runners additional bases that would nullify the obstruction. You would not let the defense make a play on the BR. Kill it as soon as R2 was tagged out, and award bases accordingly.

Hope that makes sense. It's 2 different rules and situations, but FED stupidly muddies the water with calling it catchers OBS instead of  catchers INT.

[Tog Gee]

Yeah I understand that catcher's obstruction is commonly referred to as catchers interference, I used it to highlight the similarity that you do in fact call the runner out in both cases when they had been obstructed. The term obstruction makes more sense but doesn't matter. 

I just couldn't find anything in the NHS rule book or case plays that stated the play should be killed as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out at home. Perhaps as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out, stop play and straighten it out at that point?

Tom

 

Delayed dead ball obstruction seems a little problematic. 

[The Man in Blue]

@Toggy ...  I think that many of us would agree that your logic is sound.  It makes sense to let it play out and then make your awards when the dust settles.

Unfortunately, that isn't what the rules call for though.  Once the obstructed runner is tagged out, the play is dead.  Then you make awards.

[The Man in Blue]

Here is the language NFHS Softball uses.  Makes it very clear and easy to follow:

 

The closest NFHS Baseball gets in the rulebook is here, but it is not explicit on WHEN to kill it and make the awards.  It doesn't say whether to kill it on the out OR allow it to play out.  It merely says the ball is dead when you call "time" to make the award.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Toggy said:

Yeah I understand that catcher's obstruction is commonly referred to as catchers interference, I used it to highlight the similarity that you do in fact call the runner out in both cases when they had been obstructed. The term obstruction makes more sense but doesn't matter. 

I just couldn't find anything in the NHS rule book or case plays that stated the play should be killed as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out at home. Perhaps as soon as the obstructed runner is tagged out, stop play and straighten it out at that point?

Tom

 

Delayed dead ball obstruction seems a little problematic. 

I guess I didn't understand your question. Are you wondering why you let one situation play out and not the other?

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Unfortunately, that isn't what the rules call for though.  Once the obstructed runner is tagged out, play is dead by rule.  Then you make awards.

MIB, what is your rule reference for the above?

[noumpere]

17 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

MIB, what is your rule reference for the above?

It's an OBR reference in a NFHS forum.

[BigBlue4u]

The reason I asked is that I believe this is wrong information.  Killing the play at the moment of obstruction denies the offense of possibly advancing bases.

[Tog Gee]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

I guess I didn't understand your question. Are you wondering why you let one situation play out and not the other?

I guess I am asking what to do in the second situation. With less than 2 outs and also with 2 outs. 

The first situation with catcher's interference just illustrates that sometimes you have to call the player out even though they were obstructed.

 

So I'm wondering in the second situation if you have to call the player out so that the game can continue in the play can play out.

I can't help but feel that in the second situation if there's two outs you certainly just have to kill it.

[JonnyCat]

13 minutes ago, Toggy said:

I guess I am asking what to do in the second situation. With less than 2 outs and also with 2 outs. 

The first situation with catcher's interference just illustrates that sometimes you have to call the player out even though they were obstructed.

 

So I'm wondering in the second situation if you have to call the player out so that the game can continue in the play can play out.

I can't help but feel that in the second situation if there's two outs you certainly just have to kill it.

Okay. In the first situation, you let the play unfold, mostly because of the managers option, but also because of the BR reaching 1B, and all other runners advancing one base stipulation. I prefer to think of it as INT rather than OBS. I guess it just make more sense to me to treat it that way.

In the second situation, FED treats all OBS kind of like OBR type 2, but not quite. In FED's case, since it's not an immediate dead ball, you just signal the OBS, and let the play unfold. In your described play, you could have the following outcomes. Lets start with no outs and R2 like you described.

1. R2 is obstructed by F6. Umpire will signal OBS. By FED rule, you have to protect R2 to 3B at the minimum. Since it's a double, the umpire will likely rule that R2 will score absent of the OBS. Since R2 is out at home, there is no reason to let the play continue. No need to let a play be made on the BR. No need to untangle any potential mess with a play on the BR. Once R2 is called out at HP, and the umpire thinks he would have scored absent the OBS, you must kill the play then, and award bases.

2. If R2 is safe at home, no need to kill it at that time as the OBS did not affect the play. So you let the play continue. The defense can make a play on the BR, and the BR could advance at his own peril, too. Let the play continue, and once all play is relaxed, award any bases that nullifies the act of OBS, if any.

3. If it's 2 outs, same thing as #1, kill it after R2 is called out and award bases.

4. You could have another situation, too. Say R2 is obstructed by F6, but it's just slight contact, but the umpire signals OBS. By rule R2 is getting protected to 3rd. However, if R2 keeps running and gets hosed at the plate by 20 feet or so, it's your judgement whether you're protecting him to home. If he's out by that much, you're probably not. Runners are free to advance past the protected base. In this case, if you think the OBS didn't hinder him all the way to home, you let the out stand and don't kill it. In this case you let the play continue and the defense is free to make a play on the BR. Be prepared for a discussion though! 

The situation dictates when you kill it and award bases.

Hope that helps.

 

[RBIbaseball]

9 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

1. R2 is obstructed by F6. Umpire will signal OBS. By FED rule, you have to protect R2 to 3B at the minimum. Since it's a double, the umpire will likely rule that R2 will score absent of the OBS. Since R2 is out at home, there is no reason to let the play continue. No need to let a play be made on the BR. No need to untangle any potential mess with a play on the BR. Once R2 is called out at HP, and the umpire thinks he would have scored absent the OBS, you must kill the play then, and award bases.

 

 

So I guess it would be wrong to signal 'safe' and point back to where the obstruction was first declared, and let the play continue on?

Mechanic wise, for a more simple example, let's say a BR was obstructed by F3 rounding 1B and then thrown out by a couple steps. Is the correct mechanic to signal 'out', then call time and delcare the obstruction and awared the BR 2B?  Is it strictly wrong to just call safe and declare the obstruction is the reason for the safe call, or even call time, then declare he's safe? ... why do we have to call him out?

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

@Toggy ...  I think that many of us would agree that your logic is sound.  It makes sense to let it play out and then make your awards when the dust settles.

Unfortunately, that isn't what the rules call for though.  Once the obstructed runner is tagged out, play is dead by rule.  Then you make awards.

Where does the NFHS say play is dead when the obstructed runner is out (tagged or forced)? I only see to call time when playing action ends, the problem that @Toggyis addressing. MLB addressed that problem in their Type 2 rule by adding an interp in the MLBUM to kill it when a type 2 obstructed runner is tagged before he reaches his protected base, even though the rule says when no further action is possible.

[JonnyCat]

30 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

So I guess it would be wrong to signal 'safe' and point back to where the obstruction was first declared, and let the play continue on?

Mechanic wise, for a more simple example, let's say a BR was obstructed by F3 rounding 1B and then thrown out by a couple steps. Is the correct mechanic to signal 'out', then call time and delcare the obstruction and awared the BR 2B?  Is it strictly wrong to just call safe and declare the obstruction is the reason for the safe call, or even call time, then declare he's safe? ... why do we have to call him out?

There has been some discussion here about that, but I didn't bring it up, but you are correct. It can play out that way. In the case of the famous Red Sox/Cardinals World Series play. the Home Plate umpire Dana Demuth saw the OBS, so he didn't make the out call. Instead they just ruled on the OBS.

However, I'm assuming in the OP, it was a 2 man crew. In that case, maybe the PU didn't see the OBS. Maybe the ball was hit to the gap in RF, or down the RF line. Also, in the OP, R2 is getting 3B for sure, but as PU, are you sure your partner was going to protect him to HP? It was BU's call, after all.

I'm in the camp of unless you conclusively know that the runner was obstructed and should be awarded home, call the out and let your partner come in and award. Besides it gives you partner some time to shine!

I think there is a video of Will Little doing just that in a game. I think he was U2 and came down to HP to award the runner home, IIRC. Maybe someone more savvy than me can find and post it.

[JonnyCat]

20 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Mechanic wise, for a more simple example, let's say a BR was obstructed by F3 rounding 1B and then thrown out by a couple steps. Is the correct mechanic to signal 'out', then call time and delcare the obstruction and awared the BR 2B?  Is it strictly wrong to just call safe and declare the obstruction is the reason for the safe call, or even call time, then declare he's safe? ... why do we have to call him out?

To add to this, in the case of the OP, where the PU is calling the out, I think that mechanic works there, as I said in my previous post.

If you're the calling umpire of the OBS, there's no need for you to call the out, too. In your described situation, say BR rounding 1B is obstructed, and thrown out at 2B on a close play. In a 2 man, the BU is making both calls. So as the BU, I wouldn't call the out, I'd just kill it and award the base.

Hope that makes sense.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

The reason I asked is that I believe this is wrong information.  Killing the play at the moment of obstruction denies the offense of possibly advancing bases.

Some confusion here. The play is not killed at the moment of Obstruction. Most of us are considering using the MLB/OBR interp to kill play at the moment the obstructed runner is put out before his protected base. This would deny both the offense or defense any play that happens next and might usually result in a cleaner result but you can postulate 2 man scenarios where nothing would be cleaner no matter who calls OBS and who calls an out.

[noumpere]

55 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Where does the NFHS say play is dead when the obstructed runner is out (tagged or forced)? I only see to call time when playing action ends, the problem that @Toggyis addressing. MLB addressed that problem in their Type 2 rule by adding an interp in the MLBUM to kill it when a type 2 obstructed runner is tagged before he reaches his protected base, even though the rule says when no further action is possible.

I tried to use the "stay here" mechanic / verbal  when I knew an obstructed runner would not be out.

 

Never had an issue with subsequent plays / etc. when using that -- but honestly, it's rare situation when there's (a) OBS) plus (B) the runner being "out" plus (c) subsequent play.

 

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I tried to use the "stay here" mechanic / verbal  when I knew an obstructed runner would not be out.

 

Never had an issue with subsequent plays / etc. when using that -- but honestly, it's rare situation when there's (a) OBS) plus (B) the runner being "out" plus (c) subsequent play.

 

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

Sometimes you just need to be brilliant. You solved a NFHS quandary and might also improve the OBR interp regarding Type 2. Since it was a long time ago did you just keep it to yourself. No recrimination, such a rare situation to be worried about in FED.

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

MIB, what is your rule reference for the above?

 

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's an OBR reference in a NFHS forum.

Actually, I was thinking softball, as I cited in the next post.  I went back and struck that.  Apologies.

Case plays DO support allowing it to play out in NFHS baseball, even though the rule is not explicit.  Both of these involve a runner being tagged out after the obstruction occurs.

8.3.2 Situation A provides a ruling that says: "Umpire shall call "Obstruction!" when the infraction by F5 occurs.  At the conclusion of playing action, he declares the ball dead, then awards home to R2 and allows R1 to remain at third."

8.3.2 Situation D provides the following: "The umpire will call obstruction when it occurs, and then call time after runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second for R1."

[Velho]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Case plays DO support allowing it to play out in NFHS baseball, even though the rule is not explicit.  Both of these involve a runner being tagged out after the obstruction occurs.

Fully standing under the "sometimes you have to umpire" archway and wondering out loud on this admitted dodo bird case play... so, where did we end up?

Case play: 2 outs, obstructed runner tagged off a base but to be awarded a base because of obstruction:

Scenario 1) If umpire says "out" and other now relaxed runners are tagged for 4th out: We give OBS runner the proper base, unwind the 4th out and place other runners?

Scenario 2) If umpire say "Safe" on an obvious "out" tag, and defense completely freezes / go apoplectic while other runners advance: Let everything stay as it does once play relaxes?

Scenario 3) Umpire says "Stay here"* and all play after that is live regardless if players are confused? (* which is a creative approach by the way so no picking on it)

[The Man in Blue]

In the case of it being the third out ... and maybe I am going to step in this ... I would say the apparent tagged third out IS the end of playing action unless, for some reason, everybody keeps going.

This is why I can't decide which version I like better ... or which version I hate less.  Killing it right away (as NFHS Softball does) eliminates all these shenanigans.  Leaving it live (as NFHS Baseball does) takes some of the guess work out of placing runners.

I like the concept of "stay here" ... but what happens when he sees a play on a preceding runner and decides he is going to take off for the next base?  What happens when he draws a play?  What happens if they tag him out (again)?  What happens if there is ANOTHER obstruction?  Third world plays ... 😁

[noumpere]

I should add -- make the initial OBS call loudly -- scare all the participants into stopping.  Then, make the awards.

 

None of this removes all the crap that can happen, especially at the lowest levels,   But, it greatly increases your odds.

[Tog Gee]

On 4/24/2023 at 10:02 AM, Velho said:

Fully standing under the "sometimes you have to umpire" archway and wondering out loud on this admitted dodo bird case play... so, where did we end up?

Case play: 2 outs, obstructed runner tagged off a base but to be awarded a base because of obstruction:

Scenario 1) If umpire says "out" and other now relaxed runners are tagged for 4th out: We give OBS runner the proper base, unwind the 4th out and place other runners?

Scenario 2) If umpire say "Safe" on an obvious "out" tag, and defense completely freezes / go apoplectic while other runners advance: Let everything stay as it does once play relaxes?

Scenario 3) Umpire says "Stay here"* and all play after that is live regardless if players are confused? (* which is a creative approach by the way so no picking on it)

That boils it down nicely. I think you always have to call the obstructed runner out so the defense can continue playing, then call time and straighten it out. If the OBS is noted loudly when it occurs, most folks will know that there's more to come at the end of the play...

If there's two outs, then call time and everyone stays on the field while OBS is enforced.  

 

I know we're in a very specific circumstance here but I want to have something in my back pocket.