Batter "Alert to the pitcher"

[TheRockawayKid]

Hi. Can someone give me a generally accepted ruling as to what "alert to the pitcher" means? I'm assuming eyes on the pitcher. But it doesn't have to be two hands on the bat or bat cocked on the shoulder or something like that, correct? 

[Richvee]

Haven’t really given it much thought, but I guess I’d say head up. I saw a penalty strike called yesterday when a Tennessee batter, while the pitcher was set, put his head down and take a step backwards. Rational there would be less than 10 seconds left on the clock and batter wasn’t alert to the pitcher. The night before a Tennessee player was denied time out after becoming alert to the pitcher. (He was not happy, but they’ll get used to it). 

[TheRockawayKid]

Right. If the batter is "alert to the pitcher" with 10 seconds left, they can become "unalert" after that, and there doesn't seem to be a penalty -- at least there's nothing to that end in the rule book. In fact, a batter can call time or jump out of the box and there's no penalty on the batter (the emphasis was no penalty on the pitcher for not pitching, not actually having a penalty on a batter for leaving the box) 

 

Editing to add: I took a look at pitching ninja: 

 

Now, the ball has not been put in play when the batter is out of the box, but I'd say the batter is "alert to the pitcher" at the 15 second mark. 

And here, the batter is not alert to the pitcher at all: 

 

But video clips could help (whether they relate to the clock or not) 

[jms1425]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:07 PM, TheRockawayKid said:

Right. If the batter is "alert to the pitcher" with 10 seconds left, they can become "unalert" after that, and there doesn't seem to be a penalty -- at least there's nothing to that end in the rule book. In fact, a batter can call time or jump out of the box and there's no penalty on the batter (the emphasis was no penalty on the pitcher for not pitching, not actually having a penalty on a batter for leaving the box) 

 

As I understand it, this is incorrect. If the batter is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 seconds (or fewer) remaining, it is a violation and a penalty strike is added to the count. So if he steps in and is alert, let's say, with 12 seconds to go on the clock, he stands there for 5 seconds as the pitcher is getting a sign, then the batter backs out of the box (without time being called by the umpire), at this point he is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 or fewer seconds remaining, thus in violation. Call a strike. It does not matter if the pitch is delivered - in fact, it should not be - PU should call time, announce the violation and signal the count with the penalty strike added to it.

I don't know if this link will work or not, but it's the first example in the latest NCAA video (2023 NCAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2):
RQ Videos (refquest.com)

[LC Ump]

2 hours ago, jms1425 said:

 

As I understand it, this is incorrect. If the batter is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 seconds (or fewer) remaining, it is a violation and a penalty strike is added to the count. So if he steps in and is alert, let's say, with 12 seconds to go on the clock, he stands there for 5 seconds as the pitcher is getting a sign, then the batter backs out of the box (without time being called by the umpire), at this point he is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 or fewer seconds remaining, thus in violation. Call a strike. It does not matter if the pitch is delivered - in fact, it should not be - PU should call time, announce the violation and signal the count with the penalty strike added to it.

I don't know if this link will work or not, but it's the first example in the latest NCAA video (2023 N CAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2):
RQ Videos (refquest.com)

I agree with @jms1425. NCAA Appendix F 20 Secon Action Clock #9 states that if the batter does not enter the box AND become alert to the pitcher by the 10 sec mark, it's a violation.

I read that as saying the batter is responsible for both things - being in the box and alert to what's happening on the mound. If he's in the box prior to the 10 seconds and for some reason becomes "unalert" after that you should rule the same as if he still wasn't in the box at all.

[Richvee]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:07 PM, TheRockawayKid said:

 

 If the batter is "alert to the pitcher" with 10 seconds left, they can become "unalert" after that, and there doesn't seem to be a penalty

 

This is what happened in the Tennessee game. Similar to that Philly clip. In the TN game, everyone was ready, batter looked down and took  me a step back.. PU called time and called a penalty strike. ( no pitch was thrown. Time was called as soon as the batter backed up a step) 

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, jms1425 said:

 

As I understand it, this is incorrect. If the batter is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 seconds (or fewer) remaining, it is a violation and a penalty strike is added to the count. So if he steps in and is alert, let's say, with 12 seconds to go on the clock, he stands there for 5 seconds as the pitcher is getting a sign, then the batter backs out of the box (without time being called by the umpire), at this point he is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 or fewer seconds remaining, thus in violation. Call a strike. It does not matter if the pitch is delivered - in fact, it should not be - PU should call time, announce the violation and signal the count with the penalty strike added to it.

I don't know if this link will work or not, but it's the first example in the latest NCAA video (2023 NCAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2):
RQ Videos (refquest.com)

Exactly. 

[JSam21]

20 hours ago, jms1425 said:

 

As I understand it, this is incorrect. If the batter is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 seconds (or fewer) remaining, it is a violation and a penalty strike is added to the count. So if he steps in and is alert, let's say, with 12 seconds to go on the clock, he stands there for 5 seconds as the pitcher is getting a sign, then the batter backs out of the box (without time being called by the umpire), at this point he is not in the box and alert to the pitcher with 10 or fewer seconds remaining, thus in violation. Call a strike. It does not matter if the pitch is delivered - in fact, it should not be - PU should call time, announce the violation and signal the count with the penalty strike added to it.

I don't know if this link will work or not, but it's the first example in the latest NCAA video (2023 NCAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2):
RQ Videos (refquest.com)

Called it opening weekend. I've had at least one violation, batter or pitcher, in every game so far.

[kylehutson]

I, too have called it on every game so far. I really wish we could get a visible clock on these lower-level games though.

I missed along the way that you could call the penalty strike for becoming unaware. I could have had that two times in my last plate game.

[Richvee]

Was watching some games this past week and noticed pitchers already taking advantage of a little loophole with an R2. After one step off, or step and fake to second, they’re doing the step towards second and floating a little toss to F6 or F4 nowhere near the bag. Or with R1 stepping off and soft tossing the ball F3 on the bag. 
Wonder if the NCAA is going to define, and then want us to judge “ a legitimate pickoff attempt”. 

[jms1425]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

After one step off, or step and fake to second, they’re doing the step towards second and floating a little toss to F6 or F4 nowhere near the bag. 

If F4 or F6 cannot make a play on the runner (i.e., they are nowhere near the bag and cannot tag R2), this is a balk. This play was also covered in the video I mentioned above (2023 NCAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2, at the 5:01 mark.)

[TheRockawayKid]

I just had the opportunity to watch the second bulletin video, which was helpful (I didn't see the Tennessee game) 

[JSam21]

3 hours ago, jms1425 said:

If F4 or F6 cannot make a play on the runner (i.e., they are nowhere near the bag and cannot tag R2), this is a balk. This play was also covered in the video I mentioned above (2023 NCAA Baseball Video Bulletin #2, at the 5:01 mark.)

That is only to first or third bases. Throwing to F4 or F6 away from the base is not a balk. 

[JSam21]

 

14 hours ago, Richvee said:

Was watching some games this past week and noticed pitchers already taking advantage of a little loophole with an R2. After one step off, or step and fake to second, they’re doing the step towards second and floating a little toss to F6 or F4 nowhere near the bag. Or with R1 stepping off and soft tossing the ball F3 on the bag. 
Wonder if the NCAA is going to define, and then want us to judge “ a legitimate pickoff attempt”. 

A throw is a throw. That is all that is required. 

[jms1425]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

That is only to first or third bases. Throwing to F4 or F6 away from the base is not a balk. 

Well, sonofabitch.... Rule 9-3-c-1 Note: If the pitcher throws to the first or third base player who is playing off the base, a balk shall not be called if the fielder moves toward the occupied base in an attempt to retire the runner. So, conversely, if they are not making an attempt, it's a balk. but only 1st and 3rd are covered by this. Somehow, I was assuming it was any base... I was thinking along the lines of "cannot throw to an unoccupied base", etc., but really it's more related to the prohibition on faking to 1st or 3rd.

Thanks for the clarification, JSam.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

 

A throw is a throw. That is all that is required. 

True. But it's real similar to the  "Legitimate" fake throw they allowed last year where the pitcher would step off and literally just raise his arm and look at the baserunner. I've seen this lob to the middle infielder a few times watching some games. Just my 2 cents but I wouldn't be surprised to see NCAA addresses  this with a rule tweak next year or next rule book edition (2025)

[JSam21]

16 hours ago, Richvee said:

True. But it's real similar to the  "Legitimate" fake throw they allowed last year where the pitcher would step off and literally just raise his arm and look at the baserunner. I've seen this lob to the middle infielder a few times watching some games. Just my 2 cents but I wouldn't be surprised to see NCAA addresses  this with a rule tweak next year or next rule book edition (2025)

Well... let's start hashing this out Rich. What would you say is the difference between a "legitimate throw" and a "illegitimate throw"? Speed? Location? What would the unintended consequences be from that?

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Well... let's start hashing this out Rich. What would you say is the difference between a "legitimate throw" and a "illegitimate throw"? Speed? Location? What would the unintended consequences be from that?

I’ll leave it up to NCAA to define. I’m just thinking out loud here. They knew the step off/arm arm in the air was to circumvent the pitch clock…. Now the lob throw away from 2B is being used. 
 

Perhaps they’ll add 2B to say step and throw must be towards the base and align it with 1st and third? Again, just thinking out loud. 

[JSam21]

35 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I’ll leave it up to NCAA to define. I’m just thinking out loud here. They knew the step off/arm arm in the air was to circumvent the pitch clock…. Now the lob throw away from 2B is being used. 
 

Perhaps they’ll add 2B to say step and throw must be towards the base and align it with 1st and third? Again, just thinking out loud. 

That is a slippery slope. The reason why you can't throw away from first or third is because you aren't allowed to feint from an engaged position to those bases. Doing this would then negate feints from an engaged position to 2nd base as well. They want action to happen, that is the purpose of the clock. As long as the ball is thrown, there is a possibility of action. I think we should probably give the rule more than a few weeks to figure out things to tweak.

 

[Richvee]

7 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

That is a slippery slope. The reason why you can't throw away from first or third is because you aren't allowed to feint from an engaged position to those bases. Doing this would then negate feints from an engaged position to 2nd base as well. They want action to happen, that is the purpose of the clock. As long as the ball is thrown, there is a possibility of action. I think we should probably give the rule more than a few weeks to figure out things to tweak.

 

Oh I agree. It’s just that we’re already seeing these kind of lob throws and it’s obviously a ( legal) problem ploy to circumvent a clock violation. Let’s just say it will be interesting to see what transpires in the weeks/ months to come. 

[SH0102]

Bulletin #3 just came out and addressed this, they want a violation called, not even just a reset 

[Richvee]

14 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Bulletin #3 just came out and addressed this, they want a violation called, not even just a reset 

Wow. 

[jms1425]

Copied and pasted directly from Bill Haze's post on RefQuest:

Play #2: Think about the definition of “Making a legitimate pickoff attempt by throwing the ball” If a pitcher makes a legal move toward 2nd base, then takes a few steps before making an easy, lazy, nonchalant throw to the fielder at 2nd base, where the runner is about to stand or is standing on 2nd base. Would this constitute “Making a legitimate pickoff attempt"? 2

Answer: The answer is no! The pitcher, based on the description of the play made, did not make a ”legitimate pickoff attempt by throwing the ball". If we allow that type of soft toss after the runner is already back to the base, the NCAA feels, we will be right back to where we were last year when the pitcher was allowed to just waive his wrist and "fake a throw" to keep a runner close. The pitcher was clearly trying to get around the rule. This would be a violation & we would add 1 ball to the count.

[kylehutson]

It also cemented that we should be calling penalty strikes on batters that ask for time and back out of the box without it being granted (once the 10 second mark is reached).

Will definitely have to pre-game this with my partners this weekend, as its counter to everything we've done for many years.

[JSam21]

2 hours ago, jms1425 said:

Copied and pasted directly from Bill Haze's post on RefQuest:

Play #2: Think about the definition of “Making a legitimate pickoff attempt by throwing the ball” If a pitcher makes a legal move toward 2nd base, then takes a few steps before making an easy, lazy, nonchalant throw to the fielder at 2nd base, where the runner is about to stand or is standing on 2nd base. Would this constitute “Making a legitimate pickoff attempt"? 2

Answer: The answer is no! The pitcher, based on the description of the play made, did not make a ”legitimate pickoff attempt by throwing the ball". If we allow that type of soft toss after the runner is already back to the base, the NCAA feels, we will be right back to where we were last year when the pitcher was allowed to just waive his wrist and "fake a throw" to keep a runner close. The pitcher was clearly trying to get around the rule. This would be a violation & we would add 1 ball to the count.

I think we need clarification if that counts as a reset.