FED batted ball hits runner

[Tog Gee]

I knew the pitcher having a play on the ball dosn't matter. I know a deflected ball can hit a runner without penalty.

But I thought that if an infieder has a play on the ball and misses it the ball can hit a runner without penalty.

 

Runner out when: k. is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play 

 

If with an R2 runner, a grounder is hit between F5 and F6...  F5 charges and F6 is behind the runner... if F5 misses the ball and it hits the R2, R2 is out if F6 could have made a play on it?

[BigBlue4u]

2 hours ago, Toggy said:

But I thought that if an infieder has a play on the ball and misses it the ball can hit a runner without penalty.

The rules do not provide for that scenario.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Toggy said:

If with an R2 runner, a grounder is hit between F5 and F6...  F5 charges and F6 is behind the runner... if F5 misses the ball and it hits the R2, R2 is out if F6 could have made a play on it?

Yes.  Just be sure F6 has a play and is not just chasing after a loose ball.

[Velho]

The way I think about it is the runner is out if batted ball hitting them prevents a field from making a play (a legitimate play as @noumpere points out). It's umpire judgement whether another fielder has a chance.

These are for unintentional. If it's intentional, runner is out.

[maven]

16 hours ago, Velho said:

The way I think about it is the runner is out if batted ball hitting them prevents a field from making a play (a legitimate play as @noumpere points out). It's umpire judgement whether another fielder has a chance.

These are for unintentional. If it's intentional, runner is out.

I'd phrase it differently. Undeflected fair batted ball hits runner = runner out. That's the default, and certainly the expected call.

Then we can talk about exceptions for a ball going through a fielder etc. 

[Richvee]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:54 AM, maven said:

I'd phrase it differently. Undeflected fair batted ball hits runner = runner out. That's the default, and certainly the expected call.

Then we can talk about exceptions for a ball going through a fielder etc. 

This is the way to look at it. Take the example of r1, hit and run, f4 moves to  cover 2B, ball is hit to the right side and hits r1. There’s no fielder there, but it’s still interference. 

[Velho]

15 hours ago, Richvee said:

On 2/18/2023 at 5:54 AM, maven said:

I'd phrase it differently. Undeflected fair batted ball hits runner = runner out. That's the default, and certainly the expected call.

Then we can talk about exceptions for a ball going through a fielder etc. 

This is the way to look at it. Take the example of r1, hit and run, f4 moves to  cover 2B, ball is hit to the right side and hits r1. There’s no fielder there, but it’s still interference. 

Agreed and thanks both. In retrospect to the OP situation I'd qualify my statement as "runner is out if a batted DEFLECTED ball hitting the runner prevents a fielder from making a legitimate play"

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, Velho said:

Agreed and thanks both. In retrospect to the OP situation I'd qualify my statement as "runner is out if a batted DEFLECTED ball hitting the runner prevents a fielder from making a legitimate play"

I don't think that statement is correct.

 

If the ball is deflected, the runner is not out even if a fielder had a play (assuming the contact was accidental)

[Velho]

Obviously I need to slow down. So I will. Thanks all.

OBR

5.06(c) Dead Balls: The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when:

(6) A fair ball touches a runner or an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher, or touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher; runners advance, if forced.

(6) If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, no other infielder has a chance to make a play on the ball and the ball touches a runner immediately behind the infielder that the ball went through, or by, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out.

[Analysis: Runner is not out if (1) ball goes past infielder (besides the pitcher), (2) no other infielder has a play, and (3) ball touches runner immediately behind the passed infielder.]

If a fair ball touches a runner after being deflected by an infielder, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out;

[Analysis: Deflected balls are live]

I don't see it addressed in the 2021 MiLB RIM.

That sounding right?

[maven]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

[Analysis: Runner is not out if (1) ball goes past infielder (besides the pitcher), (2) no other infielder has a play, and (3) ball touches runner immediately behind the passed infielder.]

That sounding right?

Yes. "Past an infielder" is vague: the purpose of the exception to this kind of runner INT is intended to apply to cases where the runner reasonably expects a fielder in front of him to field the batted ball, so "through" is better than merely "past."

When a fielder boots a ball that's hit (right) to him and the ball hits the runner (right) behind him, we're not blaming the runner, hence the exception to runner INT.

If the fielder is moving and the batted ball gets "past" him and hits the runner, that IS runner INT. Hence my qualms with your analysis above.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Yes. "Past an infielder" is vague: the purpose of the exception to this kind of runner INT is intended to apply to cases where the runner reasonably expects a fielder in front of him to field the batted ball, so "through" is better than merely "past."

When a fielder boots a ball that's hit (right) to him and the ball hits the runner (right) behind him, we're not blaming the runner, hence the exception to runner INT.

If the fielder is moving and the batted ball gets "past" him and hits the runner, that IS runner INT. Hence my qualms with your analysis above.

"When a fielder boots a ball that's hit (right) to him and the ball hits the runner (right) behind him, we're not blaming the runner, hence the exception to runner INT."

If it was a boot without touching in OBR we are blaming the runner if another fielder had a play.  At the pro level a normal playing F4 would be considered to have a play on a ball through or by an F3 in his norrmal position with R1.

 

"If the fielder is moving and the batted ball gets "past" him and hits the runner, that IS runner INT."

In OBR if the batted ball went past the fielder and can be considered through or by (eg: a dive with an outstretched arm) and no other infielder had a play, such as infield in, that would not be INT.

[Tog Gee]

I am trying to boil this down for FED people. Can someone comment?

• Runner intentionally interferes with batted ball (out)
• Unintentional contact with batted ball by runner:
  • Deflected ball hits runner: (NOT out)
  • Ball directly hits runner (out. No deflection nor fielder interaction)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner (NOT out)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner, but another player has a play on the ball (and a play to be made?)  (out?)

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Toggy said:

I am trying to boil this down for FED people. Can someone comment?

• Runner intentionally interferes with batted ball (out)
• Unintentional contact with batted ball by runner:
  • Deflected ball hits runner: (NOT out)
  • Ball directly hits runner (out. No deflection nor fielder interaction)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner (NOT out)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner, but another player has a play on the ball (and a play to be made?)  (out?)

For OBR, I always taught it like this (for the unintentional INT):

Start with the premise that a runner who is hit by a non-deflected ball is out.  Period.

But, if the runner could reasonably believe that a fielder should have made a play, then the rule is not fair to the runner -- so add an exception for a ball that goes immediately past the fielder.

But, if the fielder let the ball go so another fielder could have a play (better arm, moving in the right direction, etc), then the rule is not fair to the defense -- so add an exception to the exception.

 

Now, you have the rule.

 

Note that FED does NOT (unless they've changed it) use the "immediately past"  criteria; instead FED uses the "string theory" -- draw a string from F3-F4-F6-F5 (ignore any unusual shifts, etc.) -- if the ball gets past the string then the runner is not out.

[Richvee]

10 hours ago, Toggy said:

I am trying to boil this down for FED people. Can someone comment?

• Runner intentionally interferes with batted ball (out)
• Unintentional contact with batted ball by runner:
  • Deflected ball hits runner: (NOT out)
  • Ball directly hits runner (out. No deflection nor fielder interaction)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner (NOT out)
  • Ball goes past infielder, then ball hits runner, but another player has a play on the ball (and a play to be made?)  (out?)

I would combine  your last two. 
Ball gets past an infielder, then ball hits runner. ( not out, unless another infielder had a chance to field the ball, then he’s out) 

[maven]

19 hours ago, noumpere said:

if the runner could reasonably believe that a fielder should have made a play

That's the key for enforcement of the exception, and a succinct statement for its rationale.

19 hours ago, noumpere said:

Note that FED does NOT (unless they've changed it) use the "immediately past"  criteria; instead FED uses the "string theory" -- draw a string from F3-F4-F6-F5 (ignore any unusual shifts, etc.) -- if the ball gets past the string then the runner is not out.

This interp confuses some newer umpires. This should come into play only when the infield is in.

If there is ANY doubt about where the string is, call the INT. Picture F3 holding R1 and moving off 1B at the pitch, and F4 playing back—when R1 runs to 2B, he's still almost certainly in front of the "string." So, INT.

I don't like the string theory. At many youth levels, F9 can have a play on the BR at 1B on a hard hit grounder. If the ball hits R1, there's still hindrance, and it should be INT, no matter where the infielders are. I'm aware of what people say about opinions.