NCAA DH Rule

[drtinphx]

Is there any way the NCAA can make this rule any more complicated?   Does anyone have or know of a video or Power Point presentation that covers this based on current rules?  I found one online that is kind of sketchy and I can not tell how old it is.

[zoops]

Yep it's pretty much impossible to memorize it.  I print the rule off in really small font and stuff it in my lineup card holder.

[jms1425]

A friend forwarded a tweet to me about a DH situation, and I thought I would post it (in generalized form) for discussion here, because it raises an interesting issue / question.

DH in the 2 hole

F3 in the 8 hole

The 8-hole is due up; the current F1 comes up to pinch hit, with the HC explaining that this player is going to F3 when they go back out for defense.

I'll stop here and ask if this is legal, and post two possible interpretations in a further reply.

[jms1425]

On the one hand, if the team is on defense, F1 can move to F3. This would eliminate the DH, and when they come to bat, the former F1 would now bat in the 8-hole (the spot previously occupied by the former F3), while the entering F1 (or a pinch hitter, but NOT the player who was the DH, unless he entered as the pitcher) would now bat in the 2-hole (where the DH had been hitting.) If the player who was DH has entered as F1, he would hit in the same spot (the 2-hole), but he is now hitting as F1 (not DH).

However, the rules (Rule 7-2-b-10) state that "The game pitcher may pinch hit or pinch run only for the DH and become the P/DH." So, if the team is on offense, and the last defensive spot a player occupied was F1, he cannot start hitting in the F3 spot (in this case, the 8-hole).

So, it seems that the timing of the move from F1 to F3 matters - it cannot be done "proactively" or "pre-emptively" or whatever adverb is appropriate. It has to be done while on defense....

Right?

[ArchAngel72]

OMG 

I am so glad all I have is roster batting now.... LMAO

 

[Richvee]

10 hours ago, jms1425 said:

On the one hand, if the team is on defense, F1 can move to F3. This would eliminate the DH, and when they come to bat, the former F1 would now bat in the 8-hole (the spot previously occupied by the former F3), while the entering F1 (or a pinch hitter, but NOT the player who was the DH, unless he entered as the pitcher) would now bat in the 2-hole (where the DH had been hitting.) If the player who was DH has entered as F1, he would hit in the same spot (the 2-hole), but he is now hitting as F1 (not DH).

However, the rules (Rule 7-2-b-10) state that "The game pitcher may pinch hit or pinch run only for the DH and become the P/DH." So, if the team is on offense, and the last defensive spot a player occupied was F1, he cannot start hitting in the F3 spot (in this case, the 8-hole).

So, it seems that the timing of the move from F1 to F3 matters - it cannot be done "proactively" or "pre-emptively" or whatever adverb is appropriate. It has to be done while on defense....

Right?

This sounds right. I think it’s because the substitutions aren’t happening at the same time if F1 pinch hits. 
In other words, while on defense, F1 moves to 1b , and a new pitcher comes in. The coach can declare which spot the new pitcher, and the old F1 are going to in the lineup. If he doesn’t declare, the new pitcher would bat in F3’s spot and the original pitcher goes in the DH spot. 
On offense it’s a single move, and as the rule states, F1 can only PH for the DH. 

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

In other words, while on defense, F1 moves to 1b , and a new pitcher comes in. The coach can declare which spot the new pitcher, and the old F1 are going to in the lineup. If he doesn’t declare, the new pitcher would bat in F3’s spot and the original pitcher goes in the DH spot. 
 

Is that correct?  That's only one new defensive player entering the game, so I'm not sure the coach gets to choose.

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

Is that correct?  That's only one new defensive player entering the game, so I'm not sure the coach gets to choose.

The rule says defensive "change". Not necessarily two  new players. ( I think?)

 Note 2: If a game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position, this move shall terminate the DH’s role for the remainder of the game. The pitcher just removed from the mound may bat in the DH's spot in the batting order; or, if more than one defensive change is made, the pitcher (not a P/DH) may bat in place of any one of the substituted players (head coach shall designate the place in the batting order to the umpire).

F3 coming out of the game, and S1 coming into pitch is one, and F1 moving to 1B = 2 defensive "changes"? 

[Richvee]

I should add the example ...

Example: Home team relief pitcher Jones pitched the top of the ninth inning. Jones was not playing as a P/DH. For the top of the tenth inning, Jones moved to first base and relief pitcher Smith entered the game as the pitcher. Jones was placed in the eighth spot in the order where the first base player Carter was hitting, and Smith was slotted into the third spot for the DH Anderson.

 

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, noumpere said:

Is that correct?  That's only one new defensive player entering the game, so I'm not sure the coach gets to choose.

That was the case in 2020 where a pitching change was not considered a substitution in NCAA. The DH rule change in 2022 aligned NCAA with OBR.

[noumpere]

42 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That was the case in 2020 where a pitching change was not considered a substitution in NCAA. The DH rule change in 2022 aligned NCAA with OBR.

Thanks -- that's why I asked (instead of opining)

[SH0102]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:46 AM, jms1425 said:

A friend forwarded a tweet to me about a DH situation, and I thought I would post it (in generalized form) for discussion here, because it raises an interesting issue / question.

DH in the 2 hole

F3 in the 8 hole

The 8-hole is due up; the current F1 comes up to pinch hit, with the HC explaining that this player is going to F3 when they go back out for defense.

I'll stop here and ask if this is legal, and post two possible interpretations in a further reply.

Hey Buddy,

without reading the following responses, I literally just went through this in rule study last night.

If coach wants the P to bat for anyone other than the DH, he must put the DH into defense and the P would then bat for the position vacated in the lineup.

so enter DH to F3 (or whatever position really) and remove the current F3, forcing the P to enter that spot in the batting order. 
 

edit:

to your other point, I believe the intent of the rule about “can only pinch hit/run for dh” is applying to a “straight sub”, meaning one guy in and one guy out of lineup.

If it meant otherwise, then every situation where dh is dead and P must bat for vacated spot wouldn’t apply.

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Hey Buddy,

without reading the following responses, I literally just went through this in rule study last night.

If coach wants the P to bat for anyone other than the DH, he must put the DH into defense and the P would then bat for the position vacated in the lineup.

so enter DH to F3 (or whatever position really) and remove the current F3, forcing the P to enter that spot in the batting order. 
 

edit:

to your other point, I believe the intent of the rule about “can only pinch hit/run for dh” is applying to a “straight sub”, meaning one guy in and one guy out of lineup.

If it meant otherwise, then every situation where dh is dead and P must bat for vacated spot wouldn’t apply.

I think you should read the responses in the thread first before opining in error. 

[jms1425]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

If coach wants the P to bat for anyone other than the DH, he must put the DH into defense and the P would then bat for the position vacated in the lineup.

so enter DH to F3 (or whatever position really) and remove the current F3, forcing the P to enter that spot in the batting order. 

 

Your suggestion is *one* way to get the outgoing F1 to bat in a particular spot. The other is *while on defense* to move the F1 to the desired defensive spot and bring in either the DH or a sub to pitch. But the original issue was doing this *while on offense*, which appears to be illegal. 

[SH0102]

15 minutes ago, jms1425 said:

Your suggestion is *one* way to get the outgoing F1 to bat in a particular spot. The other is *while on defense* to move the F1 to the desired defensive spot and bring in either the DH or a sub to pitch. But the original issue was doing this *while on offense*, which appears to be illegal. 

I love your quote about “no projected substitutions”, that makes it a lot clearer, thanks.