Interesting ending to a LL game last night

[Mudisfun]

I was not working this game, nor did I see the play; just relaying the information and opening the topic for discussion.

3 man crew: U1 in B, U3 in D at TOP. Bottom of 6, 2 outs, R2, home down by a run. LL 10-11 All Stars. 

Ball hit, R2 achieves and rounds 3rd heading to home. Runner is advancing on the foul side of the line when F2 gets possession of the ball. There is no OBS in this play. 

Seeing F2 in possession, the runner shifts to the other side of the line, deviating 4-5 feet from his initial path of travel. When the tag attempt is made, the runner is now out of reach of F2. PU signals NO TAG, and safes the runner who then scores. U3 with a great view down the line makes no call or signal on any other aspect of the play. At the conclusion of the play, the DHC asks for time and approaches the PU and asks him about a possible out of the base path violation. PU gets the crew together.

At the conclusion of the conference, the crew determined the runner did in fact deviate from the base path and declared the runner out. This removes the run, is the 3rd out and game over. U3 provided information in the conference that he had the runner leaving the base path but felt this was the PU's call, who for whatever reason on this play was 1st BLE and not in a good position to see and or make this call. Needless to say, this call was not popular by 50% of the people in attendance.

 

So for discussion:

Should this only be the PU call? He made a ruling on the tag/missed tag, but no ruling on the runner deviation. 
Should U3 who was sitting on the fair/foul line and who had a great view of the violation immediately have made this call in the moment? Is there a reason he would not, even with the PU making a call on the tag attempt?
Would you get together on a coach asking you to get help on this scenario?
 

As an aside, my buddy who was watching said that he thinks they got the call right in the end, which as we all seem to say, is what we want to accomplish. My buddy is from the venue host league and had no teams playing in the game, so there is no real bias there to wade through. My concern is the optics, the coach convincing the PU to go for help on his judgement call and of course ensuring that we as a crew are doing what we should be doing when controversy arises. 

 

 

 

 

[ArchAngel72]

So the way I read it

 

LL PU gets asked about a ruling on a situation and the PU agreed to discuss it with the other BU that probably had a much better view of it. 

 

I do wish the BU had made the out of baseline call when it happened. But I am ok with them getting the call right.   To me that is more important than the look of well the coach pushed them into that call.

 

How many times have we heard from a dugout or behind the fence "Nice pitch" and called it a strike.

Did we let the fans or dugout influence us in our call.  I do not think so.  But it may appear that way to some.  Still no skin off my nose.

Again to me getting it right is the most important thing

 

[JonnyCat]

I was at this field last night. Our crew was pre-gaming waiting for this game to get over, as we had the next game after this one, same field. Although I didn't see the play, I spoke with some of the crew afterwards.

It was actually a 4 man crew, but it happened exactly as you described it. They all seemed pretty confidant they got the call right. Apparently the PU didn't have a good position on the play and didn't call it as soon as it happened. Both U3 and U2 had the runner way out of the baseline.

IMO, in this situation, the PU needs to grab this call and come up big. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate if U3 grabbed this call.

I think the crew did the best they could given the circumstances. It just was exacerbated by the point in time of the game.

[Mudisfun]

5 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I was at this field last night. Our crew was pre-gaming waiting for this game to get over, as we had the next game after this one, same field. Although I didn't see the play, I spoke with some of the crew afterwards.

It was actually a 4 man crew, but it happened exactly as you described it. They all seemed pretty confidant they got the call right. Apparently the PU didn't have a good position on the play and didn't call it as soon as it happened. Both U3 and U2 had the runner way out of the baseline.

IMO, in this situation, the PU needs to grab this call and come up big. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate if U3 grabbed this call.

I think the crew did the best they could given the circumstances. It just was exacerbated by the point in time of the game.

So you and I met last night and didn't even realize it 🙂 I was the one in the Dodger chair and was in the other crew working on the adjacent field to you and Juan Dose at 730.

You are correct, it was a 4 man, my mistake.

 

[JonnyCat]

5 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

So you and I met last night and didn't even realize it 🙂 I was the one in the Dodger chair and was in the other crew working on the adjacent field to you and Juan Dose at 730.

You are correct, it was a 4 man, my mistake.

 

Yes we did. I'll be back up again tonight for some more fun. Will you be there?

[noumpere]

I think the crew got this right.  BU should not step in -- the tag is PU's responsibility and, thus, so it "out of the baseline."  But, BU can give the "I've got help" body language and the crew can get together.

Better is PU going to BU immediately, realizing "something" may have happened.  Hold the hand up to the defensive coach (and others) and get the crew together to change the call.

Best, of course, is PU getting it in the first place, but that doesn't always happen (at any level).

[Mudisfun]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

Yes we did. I'll be back up again tonight for some more fun. Will you be there?

Yes... My daughter will be working the game tonight with me as well. Fun to be had all around!

[Rich Ives]

I am highly suspicious. The description talks of the runner crossing the baseline (foul to fair) as if just that action in and of itself mattered. The discussion is about being out of "the " basepath.

WHEN DID THE TAG ATTEMPT START? Mere possession by F2 is NOT it.

It is not clear where each were when the runner shifted. 5' from F2?  20' from F2? 

Runner can ruin anywhere he wishes UNTIL THE THE ATTEMPT STARTS. At this point the runner's required baseline is from where he physically is directly to the plate, The chalk on the ground means nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

The runner is then out ONLY IF he deviated more than three feet from his baseline.

I am highly suspicious. Too many folks don't know the rule.

[The Man in Blue]

@Rich Ives I was thinking the same thing by the description.  I don't agree with the call (more on that below) ...

I cannot cite actual mechanics, but to me it feels as if U3 should have immediately grabbed this call if he had it, same as he would for an obstruction.  Even though we prescribe the PU has the tag, U3 should still be watching for things like this, obstruction, and for the tag.  Just because a runner passes you, regardless of how many umpires you have, your job is not done.  You should still be watching the backside of this play.  

As for the ruling ... by the description, I disagree that they got it right.  From the way we are told, the runner changed his path upon seeing the fielder had the ball, not to avoid an tag in progress.  I don't call LL and don't have the wording from their rulebook, but this is from their website (emphasis on the important part added by me)   https://www.littleleague.org/university/articles/common-little-league-rule-misconceptions-what-parents-need-to-know/#:~:text=What is the rule when,fielder fielding a batted ball.

What is the rule when a player runs out of the baseline to avoid a tag?

Any runner is called out when running more than three feet away from the baseline to avoid being tagged, unless such action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base to which he or she is attempting to reach. It is important to note that in order to enforce this rule, the defense must attempt to tag the runner.

 

[The Man in Blue]

On a side note, NFHS is a little ... uh ... "hazy" in their verbiage ...

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

a. runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged or to hinder a fielder while the runner is advancing or returning to a base;

1. This is not an infraction if a fielder attempting to field a batted ball is in the runner’s proper path and if the runner runs behind the fielder to avoid interfering with him.

2. When a play is being made on a runner or batter-runner, he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.

I read (a) as saying the baseline actually is the line between bases but then (2) as being what we traditionally accept.

 

[Mudisfun]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:55 AM, Rich Ives said:

I am highly suspicious. The description talks of the runner crossing the baseline (foul to fair) as if just that action in and of itself mattered. The discussion is about being out of "the " basepath.

WHEN DID THE TAG ATTEMPT START? Mere possession by F2 is NOT it.

It is not clear where each were when the runner shifted. 5' from F2?  20' from F2? 

Runner can ruin anywhere he wishes UNTIL THE THE ATTEMPT STARTS. At this point the runner's required baseline is from where he physically is directly to the plate, The chalk on the ground means nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

The runner is then out ONLY IF he deviated more than three feet from his baseline.

I am highly suspicious. Too many folks don't know the rule.

Saw the video after starting this thread. You are 100% correct that the fair/foul line means absolutely nothing in this scenario, it was just a point of reference to illustrate the position of the runner and to orient the reader. The runner 100% deviated from the baseline at the tag attempt by jumping across in the vicinity of 5-6 feet; more than the step and a reach we would normally allow (3ft).

You can be suspicious all you want, but several of the crew were well versed on the rule; considering a couple have been instructors at the Western Region Academy, they had it covered once asked for their input. 

We discussed at length whether U3 should or should not have made a call, and the determination was that no, he should not, especially when the PU is already signaling something. The system worked as intended by the coach asking for the PU to get help and then him asking his partners if they had additional information to share. The end result was correct, just the long way to get there. The real take away was for the PU to get in the proper position next time so that he sees the infraction and makes the call in real time.

[BigBlue4u]

I am a little late to the party, but this is a good example to illustrate an important point.  When a coach asks an umpire to go for help, the umpire should ask the coach exactly what he wants the other umpire to be asked.  That way, everyone is on the same page.