Batter entering box vs Quick Pitch - what's your threshold?

[KStillman]

(Case in particular this weekend was in 14u Travelball, essentially playing NFHS.  But question is more "general how-to-handle" vs a particular ruling)

Help me out on official ruling and your best judgement on timing of the batter entering the box (bringing his front foot in after getting the signs, etc) and F1 starting his delivery.  We've all seen the batters who want to hold their hand up and play the whole dance into the box (which we know how to deal with), but this weekend I had the other extreme where the pitcher wanted to start his delivery the instant the batter's second foot touched the dirt inside the box. 

What's your official take on giving the batter "reasonable" time to be settled in the box, and any advice on handling the discussions/arguments from either side?  To note... both side coaches were "stand-up" guys and weren't berating, but both wanted "their guy" to be in the right.

Thanks!

[Velho]

The rules are set to protect the batter. "reasonably set" is your judgement. As you say, pace of play is a different issue.

A QUICK RETURN pitch is one made with obvious intent to catch a batter off balance. It is an illegal pitch.

 

6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action

Rule 6.02(a)(5) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

[KStillman]

5 minutes ago, Velho said:

The rules are set to protect the batter. "reasonably set" is your judgement. As you say, pace of play is a different issue.

A QUICK RETURN pitch is one made with obvious intent to catch a batter off balance. It is an illegal pitch.

 

6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action

Rule 6.02(a)(5) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

Perfect response and just what I was looking for... thanks @Velho!

[ArchAngel72]

LL has this as 8.05e 

With a runner or runners on base. It is an illegal pitch when.

 

e. the pitcher makes a quick pitch; Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box.

Notes for rule 8.05e also point out the penalty is also valid whether runners are on base or not. 

Penalty This is an instance in which an illegal pitch by LL Major/Minor 

Paraphrasing the penalty for INT.  With runners on its a balk with no one on it is a ball.

Notes also include that if struck by the batter it is a delayed dead ball with the option of keeping the play going to the OFF MGR 

 

 

So.. With regards to What's the threshold ?

For me if the batter does not have his eyes on the pitcher and his hands and feet are properly in the box than Bingo that's a Quick pitch

At the 8-10U level it happens a TON as well as the pitcher not waiting on me to put the ball back in play.

 

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

At the 8-10U level it happens a TON as well as the pitcher not waiting on me to put the ball back in play.

@ArchAngel72 Do you / how often put up the stop sign to the pitcher? I've stopped doing that and (preferably if possible) will call out to the pitcher to wait when they start to go to early. Failing that, call the 'illegal pitch' and they figure it out.  

[RBIbaseball]

If it's a quick pitch that I'm not convinced was an intentional attempt to catch the batter off guard  but I feel is unsafe, I usually will call time and kill the pitch, with a brief comment to F1 on giving the batter a reasonable chance to get set. If Coach is upset, I restate adding it a bit of verbiage on safety and illegal pitch penalty. Essentially a warning... although I'm not sure the rule book supports that "warning".

 

My personal line in the sand when dealing with pitchers that work fast and batters that like to dilly dally around:

Initial entry into box: I'll support you with a hand up and give you a chance to do your song and dance routine, tap the plate, willgle the toes, bat twirl, etc. ( I limit this to about 5 sec max)

Any pitch after that, I'll support that batter for 1-2 seconds upon entering the box.

If the batter steps out and in after every pitch slowing down the game (which carries a penalty which I have never had to/felt necessary to enforce), I expect the batter to step in the box ready to swing and my tolerance for what I judge a quick pitch has now slightly shifted in favor of the pitcher.

 

I typically never have to hold up my "stop sign" , because the vast majority of pitchers are reasonable, and the batters tend to catch on that I expect them to re-enter the box ready to go.

 

Edit: I sometimes whisper to the batter "let's go batter " if I feel they have surpassed their reasonable time and the pitcher is chomping at the bit.

[Catch18]

1. Do not let the pitcher pitch w/o batter ready and looking. This manages the situation better and avoids something dangerous.

2. Batters have a right to get all the signs and then get set in the box (note: I did not say take forever. Move the game along).

3. Put a hand up if the pitcher appears he’s ready to go, but the batter is turning from signs to get ready.

4. If DHC gives you SH*#, look at him and say, “I’d give your kid the same chance to make sure he’s ready.” If he’s still a dick, you weren’t going to prevent anything anyway.

5. If they’re dragging ass getting in the box, a few calm but direct words just loud enough for the hitter to hear, “let’s go, you need to get ready” should suffice.

6. Remember, pitching/working quickly or with good pace IS NOT the same as a “quick pitch.” Coaches don’t know this.

7. The pitcher/defense is under no obligation after a pickoff to ensure the runners are ready and back. If they’re slow and the pitcher/hitter are ready, too damn bad.

8. Put a stop to any “gamesmanship” of requesting time, shenanigans, stepping out, extra stepping off, etc.

9. I’ll probably think of something else later.

[ArchAngel72]

40 minutes ago, Velho said:

@ArchAngel72 Do you / how often put up the stop sign to the pitcher? I've stopped doing that and (preferably if possible) will call out to the pitcher to wait when they start to go to early. Failing that, call the 'illegal pitch' and they figure it out.  

Depends on level and time of year.  Early in the season it could be 1 or 2 times a pitcher ( early season with 8-10u I do not penalize) later in the season it slows down as they pick up on it.  It happens rarely late season

 

[LRZ]

The level of play is important. My last active year or two, I was working mostly U10-U12, where you have to be patient. The pitcher starting before the batter was set? How about before the catcher and I were set! These were not really quick pitches, just inexperienced players who did not have a clue.

I'd put my hand up in the stop sign; if that didn't work, I'd call time and tell the pitcher to wait until we're all set; ultimately, I often had to talk to the coach between innings. Sooner or later, the lesson would sink in. I never had an argument about how I handled this.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, LRZ said:

The level of play is important. My last active year or two, I was working mostly U10-U12, where you have to be patient. The pitcher starting before the batter was set? How about before the catcher and I were set! These were not really quick pitches, just inexperienced players who did not have a clue.

 

^That!  I've run into that a few times this year.  I have no qualm loudly killing a "NO PITCH!" if the pitcher is not making sure WE are ready.  Who is we?  His catcher, the umpire (me), and the batter.  Earlier this year I did have a catcher take a thump-in-the-ear because he was still trying to talk to his coach but the pitcher didn't check first.  (Guess that tells us how effective their signs were.)

How should the pitcher know?  I tell them we should ALL be looking at him.  Can't help it if somebody looks away but if we are set, look ready, and are making eye contact ... it's go time. 

I will stop a pitcher who comes set before the batter is in the box (seeing more of that, but I don't think it is deliberate).

@Catch18 ... on your #7.  I agree there is no obligation, but I feel there is a safety concern here.  With younger levels, this year I have observed more potential quick pitches after a pick-off than I ever noticed before.  It really feels like the pick-off is only intended to force the runner to the ground, then F3 snaps the ball back quickly, and the pitcher tries to go into a pitch as fast as possible.  A few times I have stopped the pitcher.  My thought it is the runner needs to be alert and ready also -- not still getting up and taking a line drive into his side.  (Tangent thread: don't be the guy who calls "TIME" on every pick-off play.  Only kill it if there is a regular stand-off and nothing is happening.)

[Mister B]

Last night had a Freshman batter ask for time, I said "no" as the pitcher was set and about to throw. (front foot was coming up. Batter drops the bat and steps back in the box, pitcher, who is about to release the ball, stops and holds on. Hitting coach wants a balk because, if the batter is in the box, the pitcher has to pitch. I tell him that the batter cannot cause a balk. God I hate freshman coaches. 

[ErichKeane]

2 hours ago, Mister B said:

Last night had a Freshman batter ask for time, I said "no" as the pitcher was set and about to throw. (front foot was coming up. Batter drops the bat and steps back in the box, pitcher, who is about to release the ball, stops and holds on. Hitting coach wants a balk because, if the batter is in the box, the pitcher has to pitch. I tell him that the batter cannot cause a balk. God I hate freshman coaches. 

I ADORE how NFHS (I am under JBO, which uses that!) 6-2-4d SPECIFICALLY calls out this behavior.  I had a 14U game where I think the coach must have coached his team to try to mess with the pitcher this way to get a balk, and got angry with me for not calling it.  I ended up going to my truck between innings to grab the book to show him the rule. 

All 3 times it happened were runner on 3rd with 2 outs, first 2 I gave time and the pitcher stopped, and the hitter looked back and said, "isn't that a balk?.... oh, you gave me time".  3rd time batter waited until the windup had started, did time and jumped out and the pitcher held up.  Coach fired off the bench to talk about it and went back to his bench mad (of course, after telling me a- that wasn't a rule, b- he'd never heard of it, and c- when did they add THAT rule (as long as I've been umping!)). 

After I grabbed the book and showed him before his team's next at bat, the next 2 times with R3 and 2 outs, their hitters magically  no longer needed a time out!

 

[Velho]

OBR has this covered as well

5.04 Batting

(b) The Batter’s Box
(1) The batter shall take his position in the batter’s box promptly when it is his time at bat.

(2) The batter shall not leave his position in the batter’s box after the pitcher comes to Set Position, or starts his windup.

PENALTY: If the pitcher pitches, the umpire shall call “Ball” or “Strike,” as the case may be.

Rule 5.04(b)(2) Comment: ...

If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a “set position” with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has inadvertently caused the pitcher to interrupt his delivery, it shall not be called a balk. Both the pitcher and batter have violated a rule and the umpire shall call time and both the batter and pitcher start over from “scratch.”