Where do you place the runner?

[Scotty_Ump]

Had this situation come up last night. FED rules. No runners on. Batter grounds to F6, who throws wild to F3 and the ball gets away and is rolling towards a dugout opening. F3 chases after it, manages to grasp the ball in LBT, but his momentum carries him down into the dugout. The batter-runner occupies 1B when F3 enters DBT.

What is the award and where do you place the runner?

In that game, I gave a 2 base award and placed the runner on 3B. My thinking in the moment was the fielder's act to grasp the ball to prevent the ball from entering the dugout is a "subsequent play" and once he enters DBT the award is given from the base the runner occupies at the time the fielder enters DBT.

Just want to make sure I handled this situation correctly and, if not, what rule or case book situation would apply here?

[Ump242]

36 minutes ago, Scotty_Ump said:

Had this situation come up last night. FED rules. No runners on. Batter grounds to F6, who throws wild to F3 and the ball gets away and is rolling towards a dugout opening. F3 chases after it, manages to grasp the ball in LBT, but his momentum carries him down into the dugout. The batter-runner occupies 1B when F3 enters DBT.

What is the award and where do you place the runner?

In that game, I gave a 2 base award and placed the runner on 3B. My thinking in the moment was the fielder's act to grasp the ball to prevent the ball from entering the dugout is a "subsequent play" and once he enters DBT the award is given from the base the runner occupies at the time the fielder enters DBT.

Just want to make sure I handled this situation correctly and, if not, what rule or case book situation would apply here?

It's the first place in play in the infield so it's technically second base not for third base that you would give him, as the ball is being thrown to first before he had occupied first base. So he gets second base not third base.

 

Start from the time of the pitch where the runners are when you allocate bases at that point in time.

[JonnyCat]

6 hours ago, Scotty_Ump said:

Had this situation come up last night. FED rules. No runners on. Batter grounds to F6, who throws wild to F3 and the ball gets away and is rolling towards a dugout opening. F3 chases after it, manages to grasp the ball in LBT, but his momentum carries him down into the dugout. The batter-runner occupies 1B when F3 enters DBT.

What is the award and where do you place the runner?

In that game, I gave a 2 base award and placed the runner on 3B. My thinking in the moment was the fielder's act to grasp the ball to prevent the ball from entering the dugout is a "subsequent play" and once he enters DBT the award is given from the base the runner occupies at the time the fielder enters DBT.

Just want to make sure I handled this situation correctly and, if not, what rule or case book situation would apply here?

I think you were correct in your base award according to FED case plays 8.3.3 (J&K).

It reads in part:

"The fielder applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there.The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw)."

I believe the proper award in your situation is 3B.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Scotty_Ump, your baseball instincts are good here. You made the right on-field call so why did you like an answer that contradicted your ruling? Mr. JonnyCat (nice going, JonnyCat!) gave you the current case book plays and here are the online case plays preceding those put into the book. You asked about the rules involved and these online case plays show the rules the interpretations are based on--

2016 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 18: With a runner on first and no outs, the batter hits the pitch in the left-center gap and R1 attempts to reach third base. The center fielder overthrows third base and the pitcher, backing up the play, catches the throw, and then steps into the dugout. RULING: This is a two-base award to both runners, awarded from the time the pitcher stepped into the dugout. The throw from the outfielder was complete when the pitcher caught it, and the subsequent action is a new one. If both runners are between second and third, they both will be awarded home. If they were both between first and second, R1 is awarded third and the batter is awarded second base. (5-1-1i, 8-3-3c2, 8-3-5)

SITUATION 20: The batter singles to right field and (a) the ball rolls to a stop and the right fielder, attempting to pick up the ball, kicks it into dead-ball territory; or (b) the bounding ball strikes the right fielder’s leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING: In (a), the right fielder applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick. In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch. (8-3-3c, 8-3-5)

[Scotty_Ump]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Scotty_Ump, your baseball instincts are good here. You made the right on-field call so why did you like an answer that contradicted your ruling?

Simply was thanking a fellow umpire this morning for weighing in. I’ve been working games from 12pm-7pm today so haven’t had much time to follow the thread. I very much appreciate the case book citations you and @JonnyCat mention.  I did read the 8.3.3 case play this morning but was concerned that it only pertained to a pitched ball, not a thrown one. Thanks for adding the NFHS interpretations.

[maven]

10 hours ago, Ump242 said:

It's the first place in play in the infield so it's technically second base not for third base that you would give him, as the ball is being thrown to first before he had occupied first base. So he gets second base not third base.

The first play ended when F3 picked up the ball. When he left the field, it's as if he threw it himself. 2 bases TOT.

[Ump242]

6 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I think you were correct in your base award according to FED case plays 8.3.3 (J&K).

It reads in part:

"The fielder applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there.The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw)."

I believe the proper award in your situation is 3B.

I was under the impression that it's 2 bases from pitch, if throw, then I would have still placed the runner on 2nd as the fielder wouldn't be throwing the ball to an already occupied base at the time of throw, I still think 2nd base is correct

[ATXBlue]

30 minutes ago, Ump242 said:

I was under the impression that it's 2 bases from pitch, if throw, then I would have still placed the runner on 2nd as the fielder wouldn't be throwing the ball to an already occupied base at the time of throw, I still think 2nd base is correct

The throw no longer matters once it is kicked, bumped, caught & carried, etc. into DBT. It then becomes a subsequent play and in the case of OP it is two bases from the time he carried the ball into DBT. 
 

Hypothetically, if he had picked up the ball and thrown it into DBT instead of carrying it in after the BR reached 1B then you would have the same situation. Which I believe is the point @maven is making above. 

[Ump242]

1 minute ago, ATXBlue said:

The throw no longer matters once it is kicked, bumped, caught & carried, etc. into DBT. It then becomes a subsequent play and in the case of OP it is two bases from the time he carried the ball into DBT. 
 

Hypothetically, if he had picked up the ball and thrown it into DBT instead of carrying it in after the BR reached 1B then you would have the same situation. Which I believe is the point @maven is making above. 

Got it, ok then I was definitely wrong