Balk Question - why can't a RHP...

[RBIbaseball]

This may be a stupid question with a very simple answer, but nonetheless I'm putting myself out there to ask this:

If a LHP can lift his free foot (attempting to fool the runner into thinking he's going home) and step "directly" (which we define as more toward 1B than HP) legally to pickoff R1;

Then why can't a RHP lift his free foot (not moving it forward but rather slowly backward) and step "directly" (in this case a backwards step) toward 1B, pivoting at the end of that step to spin around and throw? --- [essentially a "slow motion" jump pick with the intent to make the runner think he is throwing to the plate]

 

Hopefully I described it well enough. Why is this illegal?

edit: or maybe it doesn't exist because it's not effective...?

[Ump242]

Is he lifting his foot and stopping his motion? Or is he just lifting and stepping towards the base whether left-handed or right-handed?

[noumpere]

"directly" means not only "in a straight line toward" but also " continuously in that direction"

When RH F1 lifts his foot toward the balance position, he is moving it in a direction away from first.  To now go back to first is not "directly"

The good news, though, is that RH F1 can make this move to third; LH F1 can't.

di·rect·ly

/diˈrektlē,dīˈrektlē/

Learn to pronounce

 

adverb

adverb: directly

1. 1.

   without changing direction or stopping.

   "they went directly to the restaurant"

[RBIbaseball]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

"directly" means not only "in a straight line toward" but also " continuously in that direction"

When RH F1 lifts his foot toward the balance position, he is moving it in a direction away from first.  To now go back to first is not "directly"

The good news, though, is that RH F1 can make this move to third; LH F1 can't.

di·rect·ly

/diˈrektlē,dīˈrektlē/

Learn to pronounce

 

adverb

adverb: directly

1. 1.

   without changing direction or stopping.

   "they went directly to the restaurant"

I guess that's where I don't understand that interpretation. I'm standing here doing it myself and believe I am successfully (in a "slow motion") continuously moving my free foot backwards toward 1B.

What is a balance position? I never pause my foot or stop for "balance"... I just keep moving it backwards straight behind me.

 

I have no problem accepting it (the ole agree to disagree - I do/did know it was illegal) and moving on, but I just wanted to be sure I understood the "why".  Which you are essentially saying it doesn't qualify as a direct step (because of a supposed inevitable pause for balance), and therefore violates that part of the rule, correct?

[RBIbaseball]

14 minutes ago, Ump242 said:

Is he lifting his foot and stopping his motion? Or is he just lifting and stepping towards the base whether left-handed or right-handed?

Lifting and stepping directly backwards (ie behind him) toward first base.

[ErichKeane]

5 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Lifting and stepping directly backwards (ie behind him) toward first base.

Do you mean 'going around the back'?  You didn't mention the ruleset, so I'll go with what I am comfortable with, at least in NFHS, there is a rule that handles that:

 

6-2-4   BALK. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

(6) failing to pitch to the batter when the entire non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher’s plate, except when feinting or throwing to second base in an attempt to put out a runner.

 

 

So in that case, the act of the non-pivot foot going 'behind' the rubber commits the pitcher to either pitch or 2nd base.  IDK if there is a similar rule for NCAA or OBR.

[Ump242]

I've seen it a lot, but as long as you stepping immediately behind him towards second base I don't have a problem, what I've seen is when they come down and then tap in front of the plate and then step behind the plate with their foot...  As far as coming up and then stepping directly towards the base that being first or third, there shouldn't be really a problem with that, unless they're stopping their motion and then stepping towards first or third, or delivering for that matter.

 

Sunday I called the balk when the picture from his wind up started his motion turned sideways and came to a stop, and then delivered the pitch.

The coach was trying to get me to reverse my call by telling me that the pitcher wasn't trying to deceive the runner, and that definition of a balk is the pitcher trying to deceive the runner.

I told him that once he starts his motion he can't stop and then restart his motion.

 

So in your case unless he's stopping his motion and then picking off at first third or second or faking the second or third if it's high School, then I probably would not call a balk

[Ump242]

4 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Do you mean 'going around the back'?  You didn't mention the ruleset, so I'll go with what I am comfortable with, at least in NFHS, there is a rule that handles that:

 

6-2-4   BALK. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

(6) failing to pitch to the batter when the entire non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher’s plate, except when feinting or throwing to second base in an attempt to put out a runner.

 

 

So in that case, the act of the non-pivot foot going 'behind' the rubber commits the pitcher to either pitch or 2nd base.  IDK if there is a similar rule for NCAA or OBR.

Wait if you're saying that he broke the rubber then yes either he has to pitch or go/fake to second

[RBIbaseball]

34 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Do you mean 'going around the back'?  You didn't mention the ruleset, so I'll go with what I am comfortable with, at least in NFHS, there is a rule that handles that:

 

6-2-4   BALK. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

(6) failing to pitch to the batter when the entire non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher’s plate, except when feinting or throwing to second base in an attempt to put out a runner.

 

 

So in that case, the act of the non-pivot foot going 'behind' the rubber commits the pitcher to either pitch or 2nd base.  IDK if there is a similar rule for NCAA or OBR.

In my example, the RHP is stepping with his free foot directly behind himself (heel going directly toward 1B). His foot never passes behind the back edge of the pitcher's plate. As he would complete his step to the rear, he would pivot/twist and throw toward 1B.

  

32 minutes ago, Ump242 said:

I've seen it a lot, but as long as you stepping immediately behind him towards second base I don't have a problem, what I've seen is when they come down and then tap in front of the plate and then step behind the plate with their foot...  As far as coming up and then stepping directly towards the base that being first or third, there shouldn't be really a problem with that, unless they're stopping their motion and then stepping towards first or third, or delivering for that matter.

 

Sunday I called the balk when the picture from his wind up started his motion turned sideways and came to a stop, and then delivered the pitch.

The coach was trying to get me to reverse my call by telling me that the pitcher wasn't trying to deceive the runner, and that definition of a balk is the pitcher trying to deceive the runner.

I told him that once he starts his motion he can't stop and then restart his motion.

 

So in your case unless he's stopping his motion and then picking off at first third or second or faking the second or third if it's high School, then I probably would not call a balk

I think you're misunderstanding my example. The RHP is not stepping backward toward 2B. He is stepping backward, as in directly toward 1B, and attempting a pickoff to 1B.

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I think you're misunderstanding my example.

I think lots of us did that.  The move you are now describing (or more accurately, the move I am now envisioning) is NOT a balk.  I also don't think it would be particularity effective.

I seem to recall some interp that the toes (as opposed to the heel) of the free foot must end up pointing to first when the foot hits the ground.

[RBIbaseball]

48 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I think lots of us did that.  The move you are now describing (or more accurately, the move I am now envisioning) is NOT a balk.  I also don't think it would be particularity effective.

I seem to recall some interp that the toes (as opposed to the heel) of the free foot must end up pointing to first when the foot hits the ground.

I was thinking the way the toe was pointing could have something to do with it.

Aren't kids pretty much taught that once a RHP lifts his free foot, you are free to take secondary? ... If that's the case, I feet like it could be effective.

 

@noumpere so if we weren't on the same page earlier ... what did you think I meant, and what are you talking about with the balance position?

[Senor Azul]

I went through all the manuals and found nothing that answers your question as well as the following text I found right here on U-E posted by Mr. noumpere in June 2014. Here is what he posted then—with a little bit of cleanup by me—and I think this is as good an explanation as anything else I have seen in the manuals.

When a LH pitcher throws home, he lifts his leg to the balance point.  When a LH pitcher throws to first, he lifts his leg to the balance point.  (To be clear, he's not required to lift the leg, just that lifting the leg is a "natural motion" to throw to either base.)  So, just lifting his leg to the balance point has not committed the LH pitcher to either first or home… because it's BOTH a move to the plate AND a move to first.  Since it can be either one, it's not a COMMITMENT to home.

(And same for a RH pitcher to third)…When a RH pitcher throws to first, it makes no sense ("is not part of any natural motion") to lift his leg to the balance point.  So, if he does, he cannot throw to first.

[Tog Gee]

I'm glad you brought this up and it is very hard to articulate.

When I have a right-handed pitcher step over and pick to second or pick straight to third we coach them to lift the leg up in the air a little bit so it almost looks like a pitch. I've explained it to the kids that the reason we have balks is that you cannot trick the runner, yet on those two pick-off moves you are allowed to trick the runner just a little bit if that leg comes up high. Not too high.

I might put a video together having my son do a high-leg pick to first as a rhp. Then we can actually judge it based on a visual.

 

Edit: I see nothing in the rules that prohibits the high leg pick to first, but I wouldn't be surprised if, based on culture, umpires just said " you can't be doing that ".  It could be effective because the r1 runner might jump into a secondary lead.

[maven]

4 hours ago, Toggy said:

I'm glad you brought this up and it is very hard to articulate.

When I have a right-handed pitcher step over and pick to second or pick straight to third we coach them to lift the leg up in the air a little bit so it almost looks like a pitch. I've explained it to the kids that the reason we have balks is that you cannot trick the runner, yet on those two pick-off moves you are allowed to trick the runner just a little bit if that leg comes up high. Not too high.

I might put a video together having my son do a high-leg pick to first as a rhp. Then we can actually judge it based on a visual.

 

Edit: I see nothing in the rules that prohibits the high leg pick to first, but I wouldn't be surprised if, based on culture, umpires just said " you can't be doing that ".  It could be effective because the r1 runner might jump into a secondary lead.

Not much in this post is correct. Better to teach the rule.

The rule is that when F1 is engaged (on the rubber), he may do only 1 of 3 things: pitch to the batter, legally disengaged, or step and throw (or feint) to a base.

Most of what you've posted concerns pickoffs. F1 must step directly to the base prior to throwing (or, where legal, feinting) there. That's why a RHP who picks up his front leg and then picks to 1B has balked: he has failed to step directly to the base. A LHP can get away with a bit more (or a lot more, if his name is Pettitte), because he can pick up his leg as part of a step to 1B instead of his motion to pitch. A RHP can get the same advantage when he picks at 3B, and for the same reason.

Nothing in the balk rule prohibits tricking or deceiving the runner. Balks should be called because F1 fails to do what the rule requires, not because something looks funny. 

[JSam21]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:52 AM, RBIbaseball said:

This may be a stupid question with a very simple answer, but nonetheless I'm putting myself out there to ask this:

If a LHP can lift his free foot (attempting to fool the runner into thinking he's going home) and step "directly" (which we define as more toward 1B than HP) legally to pickoff R1;

Then why can't a RHP lift his free foot (not moving it forward but rather slowly backward) and step "directly" (in this case a backwards step) toward 1B, pivoting at the end of that step to spin around and throw? --- [essentially a "slow motion" jump pick with the intent to make the runner think he is throwing to the plate]

 

Hopefully I described it well enough. Why is this illegal?

edit: or maybe it doesn't exist because it's not effective...?

If the foot comes up for a right hander , like it would for a left hander, for that pitcher he would have to change direction in order to step to first. That change of direction no longer makes the step “direct”. That is why it would be illegal.

[Tog Gee]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:28 PM, maven said:

Not much in this post is correct. Better to teach the rule.

The rule is that when F1 is engaged (on the rubber), he may do only 1 of 3 things: pitch to the batter, legally disengaged, or step and throw (or feint) to a base.

Most of what you've posted concerns pickoffs. F1 must step directly to the base prior to throwing (or, where legal, feinting) there. That's why a RHP who picks up his front leg and then picks to 1B has balked: he has failed to step directly to the base. A LHP can get away with a bit more (or a lot more, if his name is Pettitte), because he can pick up his leg as part of a step to 1B instead of his motion to pitch. A RHP can get the same advantage when he picks at 3B, and for the same reason.

Nothing in the balk rule prohibits tricking or deceiving the runner. Balks should be called because F1 fails to do what the rule requires, not because something looks funny. 

A right-handed pitcher is allowed to lift the lead leg and step directly to third and throw a pickoff. Sometimes the leg lifts high enough to almost look like they're pitching. A left handed pitcher can do the same thing to first base.

The assertion here is that a right-handed pitcher, who has a very flexible right ankle, can lift the leg up (a little bit) while also turning and stepping directly to first base. I assert that it is legal. I will try to get a video together shortly.

Again, we're talking about whether it's legal, not whether it would be effective.

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Toggy said:

A right-handed pitcher is allowed to lift the lead leg and step directly to third and throw a pickoff. Sometimes the leg lifts high enough to almost look like they're pitching. A left handed pitcher can do the same thing to first base.

The assertion here is that a right-handed pitcher, who has a very flexible right ankle, can lift the leg up (a little bit) while also turning and stepping directly to first base. I assert that it is legal. I will try to get a video together shortly.

Again, we're talking about whether it's legal, not whether it would be effective.

 

You're thinking too hard.  And, the balk rules don't and umpires shouldn't use terms like "lift the leg"

 

Of course RH F1 can step to first -- as long as it's direct / immediate / without interruption.  And, of course the left foot has to come off the ground to make that step.  Anything else (in the context of this discussion) is a balk.

[Tog Gee]

I am thinking hard about it on purpose. I have to teach kids what is and isn't legal, and in some cases we're looking for any (even slight) advantage. Eventually I will be umpiring.

 

Just curious, on a RHP pick to 3B from the plate, can the lead leg come as high as the pitcher likes? Could Nolan Ryan pick to 3rd after this high leg move? That move is a normal part of his distinct pitching motion.

 

Here's is a very deceptive pick to 3:

 

 

I still suspect there could be a legal RHP leg lift pickoff to first base...

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, Toggy said:

I am thinking hard about it on purpose. I have to teach kids what is and isn't legal, and in some cases we're looking for any (even slight) advantage. Eventually I will be umpiring.

 

Just curious, on a RHP pick to 3B from the plate, can the lead leg come as high as the pitcher likes? Could Nolan Ryan pick to 3rd after this high leg move? That move is a normal part of his distinct pitching motion.

I still suspect there could be a legal RHP leg lift pickoff to first base...

Is the move ALSO part of any normal step-and-throw to third?  Then it's legal..

If by "lift" you mean anything close to the video, you are wrong.